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| | | Author: | BrickPhaisan  | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 01:48 | | Subject: | Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 173 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| Good morning, as the title says, problems with ordinary shipping without tracking.
I have already had some dislike with this method and I am considering removing
it, maybe I will lose sales, but surely I will also avoid taking a negative point
without any fault, because you do not know if the client has the package and
wants the money to be returned ( the old paypal trick) or that the postal agency
has lost the package.
What would you do or do about it?
Greetings and take good care of yourselves.
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| | | | | Author: | fritsp | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 03:28 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 70 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | ... ordinary shipping without tracking ...
... I am considering removing ...
What would you do or do about it?
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I switched to "always track and trace" 6 months ago. It's a bit more expensive
for the buyer.
As a side effect all 10-cent/ 1-part orders are now gone, and I think some of
them now turned into 5 euro-orders. Overall, it looks like my total turnaround
is not changed.
My main reason for the change: I like lego (building, sorting, cataloging), but
I don't like packing lego. I used to keep fiddling with the weight: more
padding, less padding... Ending up for example at 51 grams: ow no! one extra
stamp needed...
With T&T, my price for 0-1000g is all just the same. I even bought those flat
3cm boxes for easier shipping, since weight does not matter that much anymore.
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| | | | | | | Author: | BrickPhaisan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 06:26 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| Completely agree, in addition to those packaging problems and that the weight
does not go over with the packaging, it is true that despite being somewhat more
expensive but it is a less variable rate in addition to safer for us as well
as for the buyer.
Thanks for your contribution !!!!!
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| | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 08:52 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | Good morning, as the title says, problems with ordinary shipping without tracking.
I have already had some dislike with this method and I am considering removing
it, maybe I will lose sales, but surely I will also avoid taking a negative point
without any fault, because you do not know if the client has the package and
wants the money to be returned ( the old paypal trick) or that the postal agency
has lost the package.
What would you do or do about it?
Greetings and take good care of yourselves.
|
Regardless of the shipping method, you as the seller are responsible to make
sure the consumer's rights are respected - that means that if it gets lost,
you should refund it.
There's nothing wrong with untracked shipping, just include the cost of covering
refunds in your handling fee. This will save money for both you and your customers.
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| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 09:04 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, Teup writes:
| | In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | Good morning, as the title says, problems with ordinary shipping without tracking.
I have already had some dislike with this method and I am considering removing
it, maybe I will lose sales, but surely I will also avoid taking a negative point
without any fault, because you do not know if the client has the package and
wants the money to be returned ( the old paypal trick) or that the postal agency
has lost the package.
What would you do or do about it?
Greetings and take good care of yourselves.
|
Regardless of the shipping method, you as the seller are responsible to make
sure the consumer's rights are respected - that means that if it gets lost,
you should refund it.
There's nothing wrong with untracked shipping, just include the cost of covering
refunds in your handling fee. This will save money for both you and your customers.
|
What if a buyer explicitly asks the seller in a written form to ship without
tracking, and is willing to take the responsibility?
As opposed of the no-tracking option simply being there with some mumbo jumbo
in seller's terms that they're not responsible for lost stuff.
I am looking for a reply without the mention of PP / EU consumer rules. I know
where to find them.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 09:12 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| I don't think buyers can formally taking the responsibility for an eventual
lost package, but the seller can still honor the no tracking request and add
an insurance charge to cover themselves in case of an issue (package lost or
scammer).
In Selling, enig writes:
| | What if a buyer explicitly asks the seller in a written form to ship without
tracking, and is willing to take the responsibility?
As opposed of the no-tracking option simply being there with some mumbo jumbo
in seller's terms that they're not responsible for lost stuff.
I am looking for a reply without the mention of PP / EU consumer rules. I know
where to find them.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 09:30 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | I don't think buyers can formally taking the responsibility for an eventual
lost package, but the seller can still honor the no tracking request and add
an insurance charge to cover themselves in case of an issue (package lost or
scammer).
In Selling, enig writes:
| | What if a buyer explicitly asks the seller in a written form to ship without
tracking, and is willing to take the responsibility?
As opposed of the no-tracking option simply being there with some mumbo jumbo
in seller's terms that they're not responsible for lost stuff.
I am looking for a reply without the mention of PP / EU consumer rules. I know
where to find them.
|
|
Tracking and insurance do not typically cover 'damaged' packages. More
often tahn not - only lost ones. And even if they do - good luck proving that
the package was damaged anyway.
Say we are talking about a regular $20-30 order or whatever. Buyer can always
claim that parts escaped through a hole in the package, that you 'forgot'
to ship them or anything else.. If someone wants to scam you - they will find
a way, and having tracking will not necessarily stop them. Makes it harder, but
it wont stop it.
I am not talking about scammers anyway. I am talking about buyers who understand
that paying for tracking on small order is throwing money away. Literally. Lost
packages are statistically maybe 3-4 per every 1000.
Say, we are talking about an average order of 100 EUR. Extra for tracking is
2 EUR (in my case).
2EUR for tracking x 1000 orders = 2000 EUR
If you expect to lose 4 packages out of 100 - you would pay 2000 EUR but get
back only 400 EUR.
Now replace that 100 EUR avg with 20 EUR average order. All of a sudden you paid
2000 EUR for your 1000 packages.... just to get back 160 EUR.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 09:32 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| | | Now replace that 100 EUR avg with 20 EUR average order. All of a sudden you paid
2000 EUR for your 1000 packages.... just to get back 160 EUR.
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Obviously I suck at math today 
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 09:49 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| Disregarding the shaky math, it simply isn't right: buyers pay for tracking/insurance
alongside shipping, not the seller out of their own pocket. So there is no loss
for the seller to charge insurance/tracking since the cost is directly passed
onto the buyer.
I believe insurance can help you if the scam is falsely claiming that the package
was damaged. Tracking may not cover damage but insurance most definitely should,
otherwise it's a very poor insurance.
So there's no downside for sellers to charge for tracking or insurance as
long as it's clear in their terms of service so that buyers aren't surprised
by these fees.
In Selling, enig writes:
| | Tracking and insurance do not typically cover 'damaged' packages. More
often tahn not - only lost ones. And even if they do - good luck proving that
the package was damaged anyway.
Say we are talking about a regular $20-30 order or whatever. Buyer can always
claim that parts escaped through a hole in the package, that you 'forgot'
to ship them or anything else.. If someone wants to scam you - they will find
a way, and having tracking will not necessarily stop them. Makes it harder, but
it wont stop it.
I am not talking about scammers anyway. I am talking about buyers who understand
that paying for tracking on small order is throwing money away. Literally. Lost
packages are statistically maybe 3-4 per every 1000.
Say, we are talking about an average order of 100 EUR. Extra for tracking is
2 EUR (in my case).
2EUR for tracking x 1000 orders = 2000 EUR
If you expect to lose 4 packages out of 100 - you would pay 2000 EUR but get
back only 400 EUR.
Now replace that 100 EUR avg with 20 EUR average order. All of a sudden you paid
2000 EUR for your 1000 packages.... just to get back 160 EUR.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 11:00 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | Disregarding the shaky math, it simply isn't right: buyers pay for tracking/insurance
alongside shipping, not the seller out of their own pocket. So there is no loss
for the seller to charge insurance/tracking since the cost is directly passed
onto the buyer.
|
In regards to my math - everything what I said was from the perspective of a
buyer. A buyer having an option to not pay for tracking on 1000 small orders.
Does that change your answer?
| | I believe insurance can help you if the scam is falsely claiming that the package
was damaged. Tracking may not cover damage but insurance most definitely should,
otherwise it's a very poor insurance.
|
We then need to define what level of insurance we are talking about and on what
sort of shipments. Assume we are talking about very low value orders sent via
post and covered by the cheapest default post insurance. Another question is
- how many half-of-hours do you want to spend in going back and forth between
you, your buyer and your post office about a 20 EUR package and at what point
it becomes cheaper for you to just re-ship the order.
| | So there's no downside for sellers to charge for tracking or insurance as
long as it's clear in their terms of service so that buyers aren't surprised
by these fees.
In Selling, enig writes:
| | Tracking and insurance do not typically cover 'damaged' packages. More
often tahn not - only lost ones. And even if they do - good luck proving that
the package was damaged anyway.
Say we are talking about a regular $20-30 order or whatever. Buyer can always
claim that parts escaped through a hole in the package, that you 'forgot'
to ship them or anything else.. If someone wants to scam you - they will find
a way, and having tracking will not necessarily stop them. Makes it harder, but
it wont stop it.
I am not talking about scammers anyway. I am talking about buyers who understand
that paying for tracking on small order is throwing money away. Literally. Lost
packages are statistically maybe 3-4 per every 1000.
Say, we are talking about an average order of 100 EUR. Extra for tracking is
2 EUR (in my case).
2EUR for tracking x 1000 orders = 2000 EUR
If you expect to lose 4 packages out of 100 - you would pay 2000 EUR but get
back only 400 EUR.
Now replace that 100 EUR avg with 20 EUR average order. All of a sudden you paid
2000 EUR for your 1000 packages.... just to get back 160 EUR.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 11:23 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, enig writes:
| | In regards to my math - everything what I said was from the perspective of a
buyer. A buyer having an option to not pay for tracking on 1000 small orders.
Does that change your answer?
|
Not really, since the eventual insurance claims are paid to the seller, not the
buyer who will get their money back via a refund request, either through BrickLink
or PayPal dispute for example.
Regarding the buyer's choice, if they could find another store with the same
selection of parts they need that offers lower shipping + handling + insurance
costs, they probably would switch, but in practice it isn't that easy to
compare stores' costs, because not all stores offer the same parts, and not
for the same price either.
My experience both as a buyer and as a seller is that once a buyer has created
a cart in a specific store, no matter how (manually or through the wanted list
buy page), they will pay whatever the store is charging them for shipping. I've
received several orders where buyers have readily paid 3-4x the part cost in
shipping, and I've personally paid US $14 shipping on a US $19 parts order
because it would have been more tedious to find the same assortment of parts
in another store with lower shipping costs.
| | We then need to define what level of insurance we are talking about and on what
sort of shipments. Assume we are talking about very low value orders sent via
post and covered by the cheapest default post insurance. Another question is
- how many half-of-hours do you want to spend in going back and forth between
you, your buyer and your post office about a 20 EUR package and at what point
it becomes cheaper for you to just re-ship the order.
|
It's true, and I personally start charging insurance from $50 on because
I'd prefer to eat the cost of a refund than to file an insurance claim for
most smaller orders.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 11:36 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | In regards to my math - everything what I said was from the perspective of a
buyer. A buyer having an option to not pay for tracking on 1000 small orders.
Does that change your answer?
|
Not really, since the eventual insurance claims are paid to the seller, not the
buyer who will get their money back via a refund request, either through BrickLink
or PayPal dispute for example.
|
You keep stepping away from what I am trying to ask  Assume friendly LEGO-fanatic
type of buyers (not scammers) who want to save 2000 EUR on their 1000 packages.
| | Regarding the buyer's choice, if they could find another store with the same
selection of parts they need that offers lower shipping + handling + insurance
costs, they probably would switch, but in practice it isn't that easy to
compare stores' costs, because not all stores offer the same parts, and not
for the same price either.
My experience both as a buyer and as a seller is that once a buyer has created
a cart in a specific store, no matter how (manually or through the wanted list
buy page), they will pay whatever the store is charging them for shipping. I've
received several orders where buyers have readily paid 3-4x the part cost in
shipping, and I've personally paid US $14 shipping on a US $19 parts order
because it would have been more tedious to find the same assortment of parts
in another store with lower shipping costs.
|
Yes, that is mostly true. Just again - I am not talking about trying to sway
buyers from shopping at one store vs another. Assume the buyer is here, the order
is in and the buyer simply wants to ship a small 20 EUR for as little as possible.
Buyer will not go away to someone else either way.
Just one human wanting to do an honest transaction with another human. Either
option will result in absolute exact bottom-line for the seller. While one option
will cost the buyer an extra 2000 EUR (minus a few lost packages of 20 EUR) per
every 1000 orders.
| | | | We then need to define what level of insurance we are talking about and on what
sort of shipments. Assume we are talking about very low value orders sent via
post and covered by the cheapest default post insurance. Another question is
- how many half-of-hours do you want to spend in going back and forth between
you, your buyer and your post office about a 20 EUR package and at what point
it becomes cheaper for you to just re-ship the order.
|
It's true, and I personally start charging insurance from $50 on because
I'd prefer to eat the cost of a refund than to file an insurance claim for
most smaller orders.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 11:46 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, enig writes:
| | You keep stepping away from what I am trying to ask
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So I guess it's my turn to wonder what you are asking. I'm guessing we're
back to "can a buyer take on the responsibility for a package and get lower shipping
fees for it" and the answer is still no.
Unfortunately for your compulsive buyer, it isn't up to the BrickLink sellers
or buyers to decide on this. Both BrickLink and PayPal will hold the seller responsible
for the package integrity no matter what, and in return this buyer-centric policy
marginally increase shipping costs for all buyers, regardless of their honesty.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 12:13 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | You keep stepping away from what I am trying to ask
|
So I guess it's my turn to wonder what you are asking. I'm guessing we're
back to "can a buyer take on the responsibility for a package and get lower shipping
fees for it" and the answer is still no.
|
That's not the answer I was hoping for, but you finally answered the question.
My view is very different. was only interested in getting the answer, not changing
your opinion. Thanks
| | Unfortunately for your compulsive buyer, it isn't up to the BrickLink sellers
or buyers to decide on this. Both BrickLink and PayPal will hold the seller responsible
for the package integrity no matter what, and in return this buyer-centric policy
marginally increase shipping costs for all buyers, regardless of their honesty.
|
Oh sure. Just again it is not about who will hold whom responsible. Gentlemen
agreements do get broken..
My point is - should both pretend-gentlemen parties wish to enter in such an
agreement... should the be prevented from doing that? My answer is NO. Both parties
should be free to enter such an agreement. Should the seller refund if the other
party decides to forego the whole gentlemen thing? Yes, the seller should refund.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | BrickPhaisan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 12:23 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 20 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, enig writes:
| | In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | You keep stepping away from what I am trying to ask
|
So I guess it's my turn to wonder what you are asking. I'm guessing we're
back to "can a buyer take on the responsibility for a package and get lower shipping
fees for it" and the answer is still no.
|
That's not the answer I was hoping for, but you finally answered the question.
My view is very different. was only interested in getting the answer, not changing
your opinion. Thanks
| | Unfortunately for your compulsive buyer, it isn't up to the BrickLink sellers
or buyers to decide on this. Both BrickLink and PayPal will hold the seller responsible
for the package integrity no matter what, and in return this buyer-centric policy
marginally increase shipping costs for all buyers, regardless of their honesty.
|
Oh sure. Just again it is not about who will hold whom responsible. Gentlemen
agreements do get broken..
My point is - should both pretend-gentlemen parties wish to enter in such an
agreement... should the be prevented from doing that? My answer is NO. Both parties
should be free to enter such an agreement. Should the seller refund if the other
party decides to forego the whole gentlemen thing? Yes, the seller should refund.
|
Then with the same ones that I have to reimburse for something that I have not
done wrong, since the postal company loses it, why does the postal service refuse
and without any legal possibility, and I am left without my money and without
my material? And of course, for what I am not willing, is to be valued negatively
for something that I have not done wrong.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 12:35 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 26 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | You keep stepping away from what I am trying to ask
|
So I guess it's my turn to wonder what you are asking. I'm guessing we're
back to "can a buyer take on the responsibility for a package and get lower shipping
fees for it" and the answer is still no.
|
That's not the answer I was hoping for, but you finally answered the question.
My view is very different. was only interested in getting the answer, not changing
your opinion. Thanks
| | Unfortunately for your compulsive buyer, it isn't up to the BrickLink sellers
or buyers to decide on this. Both BrickLink and PayPal will hold the seller responsible
for the package integrity no matter what, and in return this buyer-centric policy
marginally increase shipping costs for all buyers, regardless of their honesty.
|
Oh sure. Just again it is not about who will hold whom responsible. Gentlemen
agreements do get broken..
My point is - should both pretend-gentlemen parties wish to enter in such an
agreement... should the be prevented from doing that? My answer is NO. Both parties
should be free to enter such an agreement. Should the seller refund if the other
party decides to forego the whole gentlemen thing? Yes, the seller should refund.
|
Then with the same ones that I have to reimburse for something that I have not
done wrong, since the postal company loses it, why does the postal service refuse
and without any legal possibility, and I am left without my money and without
my material? And of course, for what I am not willing, is to be valued negatively
for something that I have not done wrong.
|
You are not valued negatively for something that you are not willing to do. But
when the tables will turn - your wills and won'ts may be remembered,
and you may be denied something that you'd want. Something that others
can have. Yes, you will have to accept the outcome of NO. Because you forewent
the ability to have your own choice of the outcome when you were at the other
side of the table. And the circle continues.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 16:17 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, enig writes:
| | That's not the answer I was hoping for, but you finally answered the question.
My view is very different. was only interested in getting the answer, not changing
your opinion. Thanks
|
You're very welcome.
| | Oh sure. Just again it is not about who will hold whom responsible. Gentlemen
agreements do get broken..
My point is - should both pretend-gentlemen parties wish to enter in such an
agreement... should the be prevented from doing that? My answer is NO. Both parties
should be free to enter such an agreement. Should the seller refund if the other
party decides to forego the whole gentlemen thing? Yes, the seller should refund.
|
A gentleman's agreement sounds nice, but in practice it just hides the actual
power dynamics, which will reappear if anything goes wrong. In this kind of
transaction, the buyer wields power over the seller as the latter is responsible
for the package until the buyer confirms reception and verifies its contents.
As a result, the buyer takes no risk in this "gentleman's agreement", the
seller is taking all the risk if something goes wrong. Both "gentlemen" aren't
on the same liability plane from the very nature of the transaction, so it's
futile to pretend that they could just erase this distinction with a spit handshake
where one party has everything to gain from it, and the other everything to lose.
Of course we aren't talking about massive financial liabilities so what I
said sounds more dramatic than it needs for a typical BrickLink order, but it
goes the other way, why not pay $2 more not to put the seller in a difficult
situation where they could be in trouble whether they agree or refuse the bargain?
This would be the true gentleman action. Recognizing the power dynamics of this
commercial transaction and not leveraging it for such a small potential financial
gain.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 9, 2021 05:14 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
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| In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | That's not the answer I was hoping for, but you finally answered the question.
My view is very different. was only interested in getting the answer, not changing
your opinion. Thanks
|
You're very welcome.
| | Oh sure. Just again it is not about who will hold whom responsible. Gentlemen
agreements do get broken..
My point is - should both pretend-gentlemen parties wish to enter in such an
agreement... should the be prevented from doing that? My answer is NO. Both parties
should be free to enter such an agreement. Should the seller refund if the other
party decides to forego the whole gentlemen thing? Yes, the seller should refund.
|
A gentleman's agreement sounds nice, but in practice it just hides the actual
power dynamics, which will reappear if anything goes wrong. In this kind of
transaction, the buyer wields power over the seller as the latter is responsible
for the package until the buyer confirms reception and verifies its contents.
As a result, the buyer takes no risk in this "gentleman's agreement", the
seller is taking all the risk if something goes wrong. Both "gentlemen" aren't
on the same liability plane from the very nature of the transaction, so it's
futile to pretend that they could just erase this distinction with a spit handshake
where one party has everything to gain from it, and the other everything to lose.
Of course we aren't talking about massive financial liabilities so what I
said sounds more dramatic than it needs for a typical BrickLink order, but it
goes the other way, why not pay $2 more not to put the seller in a difficult
situation where they could be in trouble whether they agree or refuse the bargain?
This would be the true gentleman action. Recognizing the power dynamics of this
commercial transaction and not leveraging it for such a small potential financial
gain.
|
The following will probably blow your mind I had I think two such packages
go missing. At least as far as I know. One was to Poland where the buyer lost
several packages in a row and he was sure that it was the postman. I think it
was some 30+ EUR order. Other was to Australia - package simply did not arrive.
The latter one was for well over 100 EUR. Both buyers messaged me to simply state
the fact and that they are okay with the situation as it was their *choice*.
Before I even had a chance to respond.
THAT is a gentlemen agreement. Whatever you described - isn't.
I do get your point though. It is only a matter of time before such agreements
start backfiring. As I mentioned earlier - it is about what kind of world you
want to live in. Dishonest people are there, but I will rather not treat everyone
as such straight out of the gate. I did get burned many times by such people
(not on BL) but I guess.. it is my choice.
Nor PayPal, nor anyone else should be able to deny this choice to me. Nor to
my buyers.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 9, 2021 07:56 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 23 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, enig writes:
| | I do get your point though. It is only a matter of time before such agreements
start backfiring. As I mentioned earlier - it is about what kind of world you
want to live in. Dishonest people are there, but I will rather not treat everyone
as such straight out of the gate. I did get burned many times by such people
(not on BL) but I guess.. it is my choice.
Nor PayPal, nor anyone else should be able to deny this choice to me. Nor to
my buyers.
|
Thank you for telling your positive experiences, it's always nice to hear.
And your overall philosophy is admirable, but there's a difference between
the world you would like to live in and the world we actually do live in. You
seem to have made peace with the personal costs involved in the discrepancies
between the two worlds and it's good for you, I just don't want these
inevitable costs to be hidden to the unsuspecting onlookers of your commendable
optimism.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 13:24 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | I believe insurance can help you if the scam is falsely claiming that the package
was damaged. Tracking may not cover damage but insurance most definitely should,
otherwise it's a very poor insurance.
|
You'd be surprised then - AFAIK PostNL only refunds the value of the last
successfully completed transaction of the product, ie. its cost value for the
seller. Makes absolutely no sense except for the part where they get to pay less
money, which is ultimately what they want.
If my customers make any false claims about anything, I just don't refund.
I don't use PayPal so no problems there. If I can't verify they're
making a false claim, I always refund.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 15:50 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 27 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, Teup writes:
| | In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | I believe insurance can help you if the scam is falsely claiming that the package
was damaged. Tracking may not cover damage but insurance most definitely should,
otherwise it's a very poor insurance.
|
You'd be surprised then - AFAIK PostNL only refunds the value of the last
successfully completed transaction of the product, ie. its cost value for the
seller. Makes absolutely no sense except for the part where they get to pay less
money, which is ultimately what they want.
|
Interesting information, thanks. In the US there are several private insurances
for packages independent from the carriers. And they only ask the value of the
package contents, not its absolute cost in the case of a commercial transaction.
| | If my customers make any false claims about anything, I just don't refund.
I don't use PayPal so no problems there. If I can't verify they're
making a false claim, I always refund.
|
I just signed up for Stripe, I am now offering both payment methods with PayPal,
the horror stories of PayPal disputes make it tempting to drop it altogether.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 15:13 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | I don't think buyers can formally taking the responsibility for an eventual
lost package, but the seller can still honor the no tracking request and add
an insurance charge to cover themselves in case of an issue (package lost or
scammer).
|
At least in the US, I'm not sure if it's possible to have an insured,
non-tracked package.
Since both FCPS and PM come with tracking, and PM has a minimum $50 indemnity,
I can see a tracked non-insured FCPS, but not the other way around.
DMM section 500.4.3.2 Ineligible matter, under (e) says ...
| | Matter mailed at First-Class Mail, First-Class Package Service — Retail, or Priority Mail prices that consists of items required to be mailed at First-Class Mail prices.
|
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 15:53 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, cosmicray writes:
| | In Selling, MrPetovan writes:
| | I don't think buyers can formally taking the responsibility for an eventual
lost package, but the seller can still honor the no tracking request and add
an insurance charge to cover themselves in case of an issue (package lost or
scammer).
|
At least in the US, I'm not sure if it's possible to have an insured,
non-tracked package.
|
Fair enough, even insurance provided by third-party insurers require a tracking
number.
I thought it wasn't possible to ship LEGO parts without tracking because
they are often thicker than 0.25 inch and so enter First-Class Package realm,
but today I received a pretty thick package that was posted via Stamps.com as
"First-Class Mail" without a tracking number.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 09:42 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, enig writes:
| | […]
What if a buyer explicitly asks the seller in a written form to ship without
tracking, and is willing to take the responsibility?
As opposed of the no-tracking option simply being there with some mumbo jumbo
in seller's terms that they're not responsible for lost stuff.
I am looking for a reply without the mention of PP / EU consumer rules. I know
where to find them.
|
Then what are you asking exactly?
If the buyer and the seller make such an agreement and if the package is lost
/ damaged, then, etheir:
1. They both stick to it and whether the agreement was oral or written and signed
in blood doesn’t change anything so the question is moot.
2. Or one (I’m guessing that would generally be the buyer here), goes back
on it and then your question becomes “can they do that?” and the answer is “of
course they can.” So you may then ask “but is it enforceable?” and then we’ll
answer with PP and EU consumer rules and contract laws and balancing laws with
contracts and contracts between themselves and you won’t be happy with the answer.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 11:10 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | […]
What if a buyer explicitly asks the seller in a written form to ship without
tracking, and is willing to take the responsibility?
As opposed of the no-tracking option simply being there with some mumbo jumbo
in seller's terms that they're not responsible for lost stuff.
I am looking for a reply without the mention of PP / EU consumer rules. I know
where to find them.
|
Then what are you asking exactly?
|
I am asking whether the statement in the message that I was replying to should
continue be regurgitated no matter what, shutting down the possibility of absolutely
anything else but that.
Regardless of the shipping method, you as the seller are responsible to make
sure the consumer's rights are respected - that means that if it gets lost,
you should refund it.
| | If the buyer and the seller make such an agreement and if the package is lost
/ damaged, then, etheir:
1. They both stick to it and whether the agreement was oral or written and signed
in blood doesn’t change anything so the question is moot.
2. Or one (I’m guessing that would generally be the buyer here), goes back
on it and then your question becomes “can they do that?” and the answer is “of
course they can.” So you may then ask “but is it enforceable?” and then we’ll
answer with PP and EU consumer rules and contract laws and balancing laws with
contracts and contracts between themselves and you won’t be happy with the answer.
|
Exactly. Does it also mean that I should have a stack of pre-written consent
forms and a pen next to my bed?
It is all about what kind of world one wants to live in.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 11:52 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, enig writes:
| | […]
| | Then what are you asking exactly?
|
I am asking whether the statement in the message that I was replying to should
continue be regurgitated no matter what, shutting down the possibility of absolutely
anything else but that.
Regardless of the shipping method, you as the seller are responsible to make
sure the consumer's rights are respected - that means that if it gets lost,
you should refund it.
|
You’re mistaking on the reasons the Dreaded Statement is “regurgitated.”
It’s not repeated in order to shut down any possibility of absolutely anything
else but what it says. It’s repeated every time someone needs to be reminded
that just providing a non-insured, non-tracked shipping method, even with a “I’m
not responsible” clause, isn’t enough because:
1. it’s not legal in some countries,
2. it’s against PayPal’s TOS (if you use PayPal),
3. the buyers don’t read it anyway.
A “gentleman agreement”–the only alternative to “seller is always responsible”–between
buyer and seller can’t be anything but clearly expressed to be sure it’s clearly
agreed. It should be a mutual agreement, that is both mutual and consented,
not an ukase.
| | | | If the buyer and the seller make such an agreement and if the package is lost
/ damaged, then, etheir:
1. They both stick to it and whether the agreement was oral or written and signed
in blood doesn’t change anything so the question is moot.
2. Or one (I’m guessing that would generally be the buyer here), goes back
on it and then your question becomes “can they do that?” and the answer is “of
course they can.” So you may then ask “but is it enforceable?” and then we’ll
answer with PP and EU consumer rules and contract laws and balancing laws with
contracts and contracts between themselves and you won’t be happy with the answer.
|
Exactly. Does it also mean that I should have a stack of pre-written consent
forms and a pen next to my bed?
|
It’s not about having pre-written consent forms on your nightstand, it’s about
not having the right to do any crime or offence you want because you wrote “if
you enter my bedroom, ‘no’ isn’t an option” on a post-it under your bed.
| | It is all about what kind of world one wants to live in.
|
Answering that would become a political discussion….
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | BrickPhaisan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 11:55 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| Honestly when you talk about buyer rights, I think that almost in any case the
buyer always has rights, but if what you want is to save money and choose the
most economical shipping, then you are advised that the postal company does not
take charge of possible losses, we cannot give that guarantee, since to give
it it would be necessary to increase to what is practically worth a shipment
with follow-up.
We are a bit in a loop, the buyer wants all the rights, and the seller in this
case us, just wants some peace of mind and that there is no possibility of the
possible scam.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 17:26 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | Honestly when you talk about buyer rights, I think that almost in any case the
buyer always has rights, but if what you want is to save money and choose the
most economical shipping, then you are advised that the postal company does not
take charge of possible losses, we cannot give that guarantee, since to give
it it would be necessary to increase to what is practically worth a shipment
with follow-up.
We are a bit in a loop, the buyer wants all the rights, and the seller in this
case us, just wants some peace of mind and that there is no possibility of the
possible scam.
|
I have a low-cost shipping method (that comes with standard tracking, but no
insurance) and an upgraded/faster shipping method (with tracking and basic insurance).
The buyer is free to choose. If they were offered insured, but they opted for
the cheaper non-insured, then I think there are grounds for a disagreement (should
anything go wrong). The paradigm that "I always pick cheapest, because the seller
is always responsible" only goes so far.
Nita Rae
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 12:24 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | […]
| | Then what are you asking exactly?
|
I am asking whether the statement in the message that I was replying to should
continue be regurgitated no matter what, shutting down the possibility of absolutely
anything else but that.
Regardless of the shipping method, you as the seller are responsible to make
sure the consumer's rights are respected - that means that if it gets lost,
you should refund it.
|
You’re mistaking on the reasons the Dreaded Statement is “regurgitated.”
It’s not repeated in order to shut down any possibility of absolutely anything
else but what it says. It’s repeated every time someone needs to be reminded
that just providing a non-insured, non-tracked shipping method, even with a “I’m
not responsible” clause, isn’t enough because:
1. it’s not legal in some countries,
2. it’s against PayPal’s TOS (if you use PayPal),
3. the buyers don’t read it anyway.
A “gentleman agreement”–the only alternative to “seller is always responsible”–between
buyer and seller can’t be anything but clearly expressed to be sure it’s clearly
agreed. It should be a mutual agreement, that is both mutual and consented,
not an ukase.
|
That is exactly what I am talking about. There is a difference between a blunt
statement in seller's terms, and a written statement from a buyer who is
willing to enter into a gentleman agreement.
| |
| | | | If the buyer and the seller make such an agreement and if the package is lost
/ damaged, then, etheir:
1. They both stick to it and whether the agreement was oral or written and signed
in blood doesn’t change anything so the question is moot.
2. Or one (I’m guessing that would generally be the buyer here), goes back
on it and then your question becomes “can they do that?” and the answer is “of
course they can.” So you may then ask “but is it enforceable?” and then we’ll
answer with PP and EU consumer rules and contract laws and balancing laws with
contracts and contracts between themselves and you won’t be happy with the answer.
|
Exactly. Does it also mean that I should have a stack of pre-written consent
forms and a pen next to my bed?
|
It’s not about having pre-written consent forms on your nightstand, it’s about
not having the right to do any crime or offence you want because you wrote “if
you enter my bedroom, ‘no’ isn’t an option” on a post-it under your bed.
| | It is all about what kind of world one wants to live in.
|
Answering that would become a political discussion….
|
And the world I want to live in is where political discussions can be had where
all parties are using brains, facts and logic instead of *anything goes* approach
to dispute the arguments. A very rare beast nowadays.. and that's why we
can't have nice things any-more.
|
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 13:19 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, enig writes:
| | In Selling, Teup writes:
| | In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | Good morning, as the title says, problems with ordinary shipping without tracking.
I have already had some dislike with this method and I am considering removing
it, maybe I will lose sales, but surely I will also avoid taking a negative point
without any fault, because you do not know if the client has the package and
wants the money to be returned ( the old paypal trick) or that the postal agency
has lost the package.
What would you do or do about it?
Greetings and take good care of yourselves.
|
Regardless of the shipping method, you as the seller are responsible to make
sure the consumer's rights are respected - that means that if it gets lost,
you should refund it.
There's nothing wrong with untracked shipping, just include the cost of covering
refunds in your handling fee. This will save money for both you and your customers.
|
What if a buyer explicitly asks the seller in a written form to ship without
tracking, and is willing to take the responsibility?
As opposed of the no-tracking option simply being there with some mumbo jumbo
in seller's terms that they're not responsible for lost stuff.
I am looking for a reply without the mention of PP / EU consumer rules. I know
where to find them.
|
Well, people can of course always make personal arrangements with each other..
but as for me, I stopped offering this 'service', I just have fixed prices
and they'll just have to deal with that In my experience, anytime I do
something outside of the standard automated procedures, it just turns into extra
work and hassle to remember about it. But that depends on how many orders you're
getting I guess.
|
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 13:32 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, Teup writes:
| | In Selling, enig writes:
| | In Selling, Teup writes:
| | In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | Good morning, as the title says, problems with ordinary shipping without tracking.
I have already had some dislike with this method and I am considering removing
it, maybe I will lose sales, but surely I will also avoid taking a negative point
without any fault, because you do not know if the client has the package and
wants the money to be returned ( the old paypal trick) or that the postal agency
has lost the package.
What would you do or do about it?
Greetings and take good care of yourselves.
|
Regardless of the shipping method, you as the seller are responsible to make
sure the consumer's rights are respected - that means that if it gets lost,
you should refund it.
There's nothing wrong with untracked shipping, just include the cost of covering
refunds in your handling fee. This will save money for both you and your customers.
|
What if a buyer explicitly asks the seller in a written form to ship without
tracking, and is willing to take the responsibility?
As opposed of the no-tracking option simply being there with some mumbo jumbo
in seller's terms that they're not responsible for lost stuff.
I am looking for a reply without the mention of PP / EU consumer rules. I know
where to find them.
|
Well, people can of course always make personal arrangements with each other..
but as for me, I stopped offering this 'service', I just have fixed prices
and they'll just have to deal with that In my experience, anytime I do
something outside of the standard automated procedures, it just turns into extra
work and hassle to remember about it. But that depends on how many orders you're
getting I guess.
|
Yeah, non-standard situations tend to drag additional things into the picture.
Taught me to start using order comments / user comments a whole lot more than
I did in the past.
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| | | | | Author: | tons_of_bricks | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 12:38 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| Looking at the discussions going on in this thread makes me glad that here in
the US tracking is included with all packages and I don't have to worry about
situations like this.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 12:47 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, firestar246 writes:
| | Looking at the discussions going on in this thread makes me glad that here in
the US tracking is included with all packages and I don't have to worry about
situations like this.
|
Haha.. Well... yes.. but I think it is true only until one starts thinking that
shipping could be so much cheaper if the society was not full of.. er.. bad persons
making everyone pay for the sins of a few.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 16:02 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 21 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| That's what I thought too, but just today, I received a domestic Stamps.com-labeled
First Class Mail package with no tracking number whatsoever, I didn't know
it was possible!
In Selling, firestar246 writes:
| | Looking at the discussions going on in this thread makes me glad that here in
the US tracking is included with all packages and I don't have to worry about
situations like this.
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | SezaR | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 15:34 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 37 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | Good morning, as the title says, problems with ordinary shipping without tracking.
I have already had some dislike with this method and I am considering removing
it, maybe I will lose sales, but surely I will also avoid taking a negative point
without any fault, because you do not know if the client has the package and
wants the money to be returned ( the old paypal trick) or that the postal agency
has lost the package.
What would you do or do about it?
Greetings and take good care of yourselves.
|
I would:
- Below a certain value (like 30 Euro), accept to ship without tracking
- For shipment without tracking, Add a small handling fee (for self-insurance)
like 1%
- Refund if the buyer claims he did not receive it.
In Canada, we can ship a mailer for only $2.05 without tracking but with tracking,
it costs $11. So far, none of my buyers claimed a non-delivery.
I have had three parcels lost, two of them had tracking and the tracking of one
parcel said "delivered"! (I trust that buyer and the parcel was delivered to
a wrong address)
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | calebfishn | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 16:33 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| In Selling, BrickPhaisan writes:
| | Good morning, as the title says, problems with ordinary shipping without tracking.
I have already had some dislike with this method and I am considering removing
it, maybe I will lose sales, but surely I will also avoid taking a negative point
without any fault, because you do not know if the client has the package and
wants the money to be returned ( the old paypal trick) or that the postal agency
has lost the package.
What would you do or do about it?
Greetings and take good care of yourselves.
|
The incidence of buyers claiming they did not receive their package are so rare
that it is not worth my trouble, or the buyer's cost to pay the huge extra
amount it would take to add tracking (Canada Post). Exception would be for sets
or high value orders, in which case I'd insure it myself for my own piece
of mind.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Pam_Shaver | | Posted: | Jun 8, 2021 17:28 | | Subject: | Re: Shipments without tracking number | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Selling | |
|
| Here's a related question for U.S. sellers. If I take out insurance for
$100 on a package shipped to the U.S. and the package gets lost by the postal
system. Will they reimburse me the full value of the insurance - $100 - OR will
I have to prove it was worth a $100 and maybe accept a lesser amount because
I bought the item 20 years ago?
|
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|
Spain, Comunidad Valenciana
Netherlands, Overijssel
Lithuania, Panevėžys
USA, New York
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Canada, British Columbia