|
 |
| | | Author: | Stellar  | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 10:10 | | Subject: | The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 236 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
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| | | | | Author: | MrPetovan | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 10:35 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In the US, prices can be displayed without the Sales tax added since it depends
on the buyer. Maybe this is the source of the change even though VAT and Sales
tax are different in nature.
In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
|
|
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| | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 10:36 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
It seems to be more a correction to me: none of your buyers paid VAT, why would
you want the PG to say they did?
|
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| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 11:22 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
It seems to be more a correction to me: none of your buyers paid VAT, why would
you want the PG to say they did?
|
EU buyers seeing the May sale in the PG will think that the prices are lower
than what in reality is.
|
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 11:48 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 70 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
It seems to be more a correction to me: none of your buyers paid VAT, why would
you want the PG to say they did?
|
EU buyers seeing the May sale in the PG will think that the prices are lower
than what in reality is.
|
Which reality? The sale didn’t include VAT or had a 0% VAT, that’s the reality.
The reality is not adding a fake VAT for EU members.
Besides, AFAIK, a sale between a US seller and a US buyer has never had a fake
VAT added on the PG for EU members. Would you want one to be added too now?
The PG doesn’t show if the seller was in EU or not. It only shows countries
for for sale items, and to those, the price shown is what you’ll pay (VAT included
or VAT does not apply) on BL, not in reality, as import VAT is not included (yet).
And even if it showed the seller’s and buyer’s countries, you couldn’t know if
VAT was included or not.
So the sold column has always been wrong and will always be wrong: you don’t
know which prices included VAT and if you could have bought the items at that
price from the same seller.
The only simple way¹ to correct that is to remove the VAT to all the prices for
sold items, and tell viewers they need to consider VAT. But people will always
see the prices without VAT in the sold column and with VAT in the for sale column
(because it’s the law for for sale) and even if they remember to consider VAT,
they’ll have seen sold prices alwasy lower than for sale.
(¹ Another way would be to say which sales included VAT and how much and the
seller’s and buyer’s countries so that the viewer can correct the prices themself.
Way much more information to compute for the viewer… but at least the sold prices
would be nearer the for sale ones.)
TL;DR: any way you look at it, the PG is wrong.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 13:19 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
It seems to be more a correction to me: none of your buyers paid VAT, why would
you want the PG to say they did?
|
EU buyers seeing the May sale in the PG will think that the prices are lower
than what in reality is.
|
Which reality? The sale didn’t include VAT or had a 0% VAT, that’s the reality.
The reality is not adding a fake VAT for EU members.
Besides, AFAIK, a sale between a US seller and a US buyer has never had a fake
VAT added on the PG for EU members. Would you want one to be added too now?
The PG doesn’t show if the seller was in EU or not. It only shows countries
for for sale items, and to those, the price shown is what you’ll pay (VAT included
or VAT does not apply) on BL, not in reality, as import VAT is not included (yet).
And even if it showed the seller’s and buyer’s countries, you couldn’t know if
VAT was included or not.
So the sold column has always been wrong and will always be wrong: you don’t
know which prices included VAT and if you could have bought the items at that
price from the same seller.
The only simple way¹ to correct that is to remove the VAT to all the prices for
sold items, and tell viewers they need to consider VAT. But people will always
see the prices without VAT in the sold column and with VAT in the for sale column
(because it’s the law for for sale) and even if they remember to consider VAT,
they’ll have seen sold prices alwasy lower than for sale.
(¹ Another way would be to say which sales included VAT and how much and the
seller’s and buyer’s countries so that the viewer can correct the prices themself.
Way much more information to compute for the viewer… but at least the sold prices
would be nearer the for sale ones.)
TL;DR: any way you look at it, the PG is wrong.
|
Right... Very well explained Sylvain!
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | swilhelm | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 15:10 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 62 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| Thanks for this explanation. I am the Product Manager for Marketplace at BrickLink
and we are in the process of putting a communication together that will be sent
out along with the upcoming EU Marketplace VAT collection changes coming on BrickLink
starting July 1st.
As part of these changes, we will be instructing sellers to list the base price
of their items exclusive of any taxes or VAT to ensure that all users will list
comparable prices on the Price Guide going forward. This will hopefully eliminate
any discrepancies among sellers who may or may not list their items inclusive
of taxes/fees.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 15:54 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, swilhelm writes:
| | Thanks for this explanation. I am the Product Manager for Marketplace at BrickLink
and we are in the process of putting a communication together that will be sent
out along with the upcoming EU Marketplace VAT collection changes coming on BrickLink
starting July 1st.
|
Will you also help sellers understand the other new rules introduced on the same
date, namely, the change from separate and high country-by-country thresholds
for VAT liability (35k€ to 100k€) to a unique and low global threshold (10k€)?
See https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1274254 for a hint about this mess.
And will the BL VAT mechanism be modified to allow to “choose” between seller’s
or buyer’s VAT rate as these new rules demand?
| | As part of these changes, we will be instructing sellers to list the base price
of their items exclusive of any taxes or VAT to ensure that all users will list
comparable prices on the Price Guide going forward. This will hopefully eliminate
any discrepancies among sellers who may or may not list their items inclusive
of taxes/fees.
|
Uh? It’s BL that lists the prices in the Price Guide. It’s the BL VAT mechanism
that decides who sees VAT-inclusive prices or not.
The VAT-registered sellers who use the BL VAT mechanism DO already list their
base price exclusive of VAT.
Or are you instructing the few VAT-registered sellers who do not use the BL VAT
mechanism to use it?
Anyway, I don’t see how that would change what the PG shows & should show. By
law, for sale items from EU sellers should have VAT included for EU viewers (buyers
or sellers) and I’m not sure you can add VAT on for sale items from non-EU sellers,
even if BL collects the VAT on them if the total order is below 150€. On the
other hand, realized sales between non-EU participants don’t have VAT and shan’t
have a fake VAT added. So, even if you add VAT to ALL the items listed for sale,
because you can’t remove VAT for a part of them, the two columns in the PG will
always show different numbers and lead to the same error Stellar makes/is afraid
of.
(And most of that should go the same for UK and some other VAT countries: just
replace EU with UK in the paragraph above.)
What is needed is education about statistics and taxes and how to read the PG.
And that still won’t help psychological biases.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | kaat | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 16:17 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, SylvainLS writes:
| | Will you also help sellers understand the other new rules introduced on the same
date, namely, the change from separate and high country-by-country thresholds
for VAT liability (35k€ to 100k€) to a unique and low global threshold (10k€)?
See https://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1274254 for a hint about this mess.
And will the BL VAT mechanism be modified to allow to “choose” between seller’s
or buyer’s VAT rate as these new rules demand?
|
Good questions!
| | Uh? It’s BL that lists the prices in the Price Guide. It’s the BL VAT mechanism
that decides who sees VAT-inclusive prices or not.
The VAT-registered sellers who use the BL VAT mechanism DO already list their
base price exclusive of VAT.
Or are you instructing the few VAT-registered sellers who do not use the BL VAT
mechanism to use it?
|
VAT enabled sellers currently set their prices including whatever VAT % is in
their country. The VAT page in the store settings says this:
When VAT is enabled, EU buyers will see your list price as is. Non-EU buyers
will see your list price excluding VAT. When VAT is disabled, all buyers will
see the same list price.
If this changes, sellers need to update their prices and remove the VAT.
To me, it makes sense to switch to prices excluding VAT. Else, with the new rules,
it becomes more complicated to calculate: first remove seller's country VAT,
then add buyers VAT (or Sales Tax for that matter). Simply listing excluding
of any form of tax and then add it seems logical to me.
As long as EU buyers see the price including their VAT % all the time. As you
mentioned, it's not common nor allowed to list prices excluding VAT and then
add VAT in the end on the grand total. This will lead to compliance issues and
angry buyers, because they are not used to it in the EU. So, in the new situation
when I list an item for 1.00 euro (excluding VAT), a German buyer should see
1.19 euro and a Dutch buyer should see 1.21 euro, etc.
Price guide shows 1.00 in both cases. When somebody is logged in, it could potentially
display it including any taxes? Or at least mention it is excluding.
| | Anyway, I don’t see how that would change what the PG shows & should show. By
law, for sale items from EU sellers should have VAT included for EU viewers (buyers
or sellers) and I’m not sure you can add VAT on for sale items from non-EU sellers,
even if BL collects the VAT on them if the total order is below 150€. On the
other hand, realized sales between non-EU participants don’t have VAT and shan’t
have a fake VAT added. So, even if you add VAT to ALL the items listed for sale,
because you can’t remove VAT for a part of them, the two columns in the PG will
always show different numbers and lead to the same error Stellar makes/is afraid
of.
(And most of that should go the same for UK and some other VAT countries: just
replace EU with UK in the paragraph above.)
What is needed is education about statistics and taxes and how to read the PG.
And that still won’t help psychological biases.
|
Indeed. The psychological part is also due to the fact that prices in the EU
are always including of VAT.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | NelisSolis | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 16:50 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, kaat writes:
| | As long as EU buyers see the price including their VAT % all the time. As you
mentioned, it's not common nor allowed to list prices excluding VAT and then
add VAT in the end on the grand total. This will lead to compliance issues and
angry buyers, because they are not used to it in the EU. So, in the new situation
when I list an item for 1.00 euro (excluding VAT), a German buyer should see
1.19 euro and a Dutch buyer should see 1.21 euro, etc.
|
I think it is a little more complicated: A VAT-registered seller who stays below
the yearly €10k threshold (for the company, so all sales on all platforms together)
for non-domestic EU sales is supposed to charge his domestic VAT% for all EU
sales. He can choose to use the new regulations (dutch: Unieregeling) and charge
the local VAT% of the buyer, but needs to arrange it with the local tax agency
and he needs to do a lot more administration.
So in your example: for a small Dutch store (below €10k EU sales) the German
buyer should also see 1.21 euro (base price + 21% Dutch VAT). For a large Dutch
store (above €10k EU sales) the German buyer should see 1.19 euro (base price
+ 19% German VAT).
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | kaat | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 17:15 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, NelisSolis writes:
| | I think it is a little more complicated: A VAT-registered seller who stays below
the yearly €10k threshold (for the company, so all sales on all platforms together)
for non-domestic EU sales is supposed to charge his domestic VAT% for all EU
sales. He can choose to use the new regulations (dutch: Unieregeling) and charge
the local VAT% of the buyer, but needs to arrange it with the local tax agency
and he needs to do a lot more administration.
So in your example: for a small Dutch store (below €10k EU sales) the German
buyer should also see 1.21 euro (base price + 21% Dutch VAT). For a large Dutch
store (above €10k EU sales) the German buyer should see 1.19 euro (base price
+ 19% German VAT).
|
Indeed, thanks. A seller should have an option to select whether the shop uses
the domestic VAT rate (below threshold) or the one from the buyer (above threshold).
Like we discussed in another thread as well. I just hope all of these situations
and exceptions can be implemented and tested before July 1st  .
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 16:51 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, kaat writes:
| | […]
VAT enabled sellers currently set their prices including whatever VAT % is in
their country. The VAT page in the store settings says this:
When VAT is enabled, EU buyers will see your list price as is. Non-EU buyers
will see your list price excluding VAT. When VAT is disabled, all buyers will
see the same list price.
|
Okay, proof again that I’m not a seller on BL 
| | If this changes, sellers need to update their prices and remove the VAT.
To me, it makes sense to switch to prices excluding VAT. Else, with the new rules,
it becomes more complicated to calculate: first remove seller's country VAT,
then add buyers VAT (or Sales Tax for that matter). Simply listing excluding
of any form of tax and then add it seems logical to me.
|
Indeed. And as it’s how it works (taxes are added, not removed), that’s how
I remembered it working.
But if it worked the other way (removing) and BL needed to change it, then what
swilhelm said now makes sense.
| | As long as EU buyers see the price including their VAT % all the time. As you
mentioned, it's not common nor allowed to list prices excluding VAT and then
add VAT in the end on the grand total. This will lead to compliance issues and
angry buyers, because they are not used to it in the EU. So, in the new situation
when I list an item for 1.00 euro (excluding VAT), a German buyer should see
1.19 euro and a Dutch buyer should see 1.21 euro, etc.
|
_IF_ you’re using buyer’s rate because you are over the 10k€ limit or because
you chose so.
If you’re below the limit you can still use your domestic rate.
| | Price guide shows 1.00 in both cases. When somebody is logged in, it could potentially
display it including any taxes? Or at least mention it is excluding.
|
Not exactly.
A. The For Sale column.
It should show 1.20 to me, because it’s a for sale price and it’s the law (and
it shows me 1.00 from US sellers).
I don’t think it can show 1.0 in the For Sale column.
B. The Sold column.
For now, it shows 1.19 if you sold it to a German buyer and 1.00 if you sold
it to a US buyer, because it’s what they paid (the thread started because, formerly,
it showed 1.19 for a US buyer with a EU seller, which was wrong).
I’m not sure BL can show 1.00 for both cases (real German and US buyers), but:
1. it would be a lie to show 1.20 for both (as in, “if you had been the buyer,
you’d have paid this price”),
2. if it does, the psychological bias will be hard to compensate: you see one
column with 1.2 (because the law), the other with 1.0, you may “know” it would
have cost you 1.2 if you had been the buyer, but it’s like 9.99 prices: you “know”
it’s actually 10 but it’s very hard not to think 9.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | BrickMusher | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 16:23 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| | | we are in the process of putting a communication together that will be sent
out along with the upcoming EU Marketplace VAT collection changes coming on BrickLink
starting July 1st.
|
Hi,
nice to hear. Will the change in VAT collection also include Norway?
As you might know, Norway is not exactly member of EU, but participate in many
EU-regulations.
Including VOEC and IOSS.
Since EU-Government has not explained anything to anyone about that change yet,
I expect a lot of confusion and frustration not only on BL within the next weeks
and month.
A detailed explanation on how to mark shipments properly in order to avoid double-taxing
would be extremely helpful.
As a buyer, I am very unsure about the whole thing just right now, and will probably
not buy from abroad until things have evolved and established.
Thank You in advance for any explanation.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jun 5, 2021 13:19 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, swilhelm writes:
| | Thanks for this explanation. I am the Product Manager for Marketplace at BrickLink
and we are in the process of putting a communication together that will be sent
out along with the upcoming EU Marketplace VAT collection changes coming on BrickLink
starting July 1st.
As part of these changes, we will be instructing sellers to list the base price
of their items exclusive of any taxes or VAT to ensure that all users will list
comparable prices on the Price Guide going forward. This will hopefully eliminate
any discrepancies among sellers who may or may not list their items inclusive
of taxes/fees.
|
Thanks for acknowledging this.
But this is not only a sellers problem for pricing, buyers see the Price Guide
too and there about a half would be without VAT sales.
Maybe consider adding an indicator to transactions with (or without) VAT for
all EU accounts, as I know that with the API that information is available.
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | melbourne_josh | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 10:42 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
The API returns the same price for both, EUR8.6777
The website is wrong, possibly built on a data cache or something. Perhaps tonight's
maintenance run will clean all the data up?
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | cosmicray | | Posted: | May 20, 2021 13:52 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 66 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, melbourne_josh writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
The API returns the same price for both, EUR8.6777
The website is wrong, possibly built on a data cache or something. Perhaps tonight's
maintenance run will clean all the data up?
|
The website is either right or wrong depending on the context of who is looking
at it (and what their local regulations suggest should be displayed).
This entire issue also becomes messy, when you have someone outside the USA (in
a presumably VAT collecting jurisdiction) buying via an Oregon or Delaware
freight forwarding agency. Those two states charge no US sales tax, and as such
BL will not have visibility to the VAT (which would likely be collected, if at
all, when the packages clears customs at the destination country).
The best that could possibly be achieved (for the PG) is to show a base price,
with some annotation that VAT was added to that by BL.
Nita Rae
|
|
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| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 04:33 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
I had it priced at 159.99, but as it was sold to USA it is now in the PG as 132€
Then when another seller in EU checks the PG it will probably price it around
132€ and if it sells without VAT it would end in the PG as 109.09€ and so
on...
Maybe it is time to update how the PG is displayed...
Sergio
Stellar Bricks
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | Jun 4, 2021 05:11 | | Subject: | Re: The end of PG? Problem: items sold excl. VAT | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Technical Issues | |
|
| In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | In Technical Issues, Stellar writes:
| | Until the Brexit update from yesterday the items that had VAT but were sold without
VAT show in the PG the value without VAT instead of the appropriate price.
Check the images attached... Race to the bottom...?
|
I had it priced at 159.99, but as it was sold to USA it is now in the PG as 132€
Then when another seller in EU checks the PG it will probably price it around
132€ and if it sells without VAT it would end in the PG as 109.09€ and so
on...
Maybe it is time to update how the PG is displayed...
Sergio
Stellar Bricks
|
Forgot the link...
|
|
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|
Spain, Comunidad Valenciana
)
)
)
USA, New York
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
Netherlands, Zuid-Holland
Norway
Australia, Victoria
