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| | | Author: | Teup  | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 04:33 | | Subject: | Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 369 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
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| I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
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| | | | | Author: | jethroo | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 04:46 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 118 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
there is already this lovely brick next to the username 
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| | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 07:13 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 85 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, jethroo writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
there is already this lovely brick next to the username
|
That's feedback and it's unrelated  There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:41 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 69 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | […]
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Nonsense. A “hobbyist” with several sales a week isn’t a hobbyist, whether they
are incorporated / registred / whatever or not.
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:52 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | […]
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Nonsense. A “hobbyist” with several sales a week isn’t a hobbyist, whether they
are incorporated / registred / whatever or not.
|
I'm not so sure. Someone that decides to get rid of their collection may
pick up multiple sales in a week, and go on for a few months like that. Whereas
a business may get few sales per week. It may not be a very good business, but
still a business if they buy to sell for profit.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 09:35 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | […]
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Nonsense. A “hobbyist” with several sales a week isn’t a hobbyist, whether they
are incorporated / registred / whatever or not.
|
I'm not so sure. Someone that decides to get rid of their collection may
pick up multiple sales in a week, and go on for a few months like that.
|
Let me rephrase: Saying “feedback is unrelated” is a nonsense because high feedback
is a strong clue of the seller being a professional.
Yes, you can always contrive examples for which a general rule doesn’t apply
but this rule applies and is used by the IRS/HMRS/DGFIP/… when they decide to
go after you.
| | Whereas
a business may get few sales per week. It may not be a very good business, but
still a business if they buy to sell for profit.
|
Note that I didn’t say a low feedback/revenue indicates the seller is a hobbyist.
Indeed, in another thread, I told a seller their not making money was irrelevant
to their professional status.
Some people (mainly from Common Law countries) tend to argue things aren’t “legal”
or “illegal” until they have been judged as such in a court.
For some people, the “hobbyist status” is a bit like that: as the IRS/HMRS/DGFIP/…
hasn’t yet pounced on them or their fellows, they strongly believe the status
exists and applies to them.
As MarieA says, a seller claiming to be hobbyist while they clearly are not is
a strong clue they won’t follow other rules, like consumer laws.
And yes, I’m pretty sure there are actual hobbyists who have a better customer
services than big professional sellers but Pro vs. Hobby is a bit like New vs.
Used: it’s not a question of aspect / experience, it’s a question of status.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Leftoverbricks | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 13:18 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | […]
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Nonsense. A “hobbyist” with several sales a week isn’t a hobbyist, whether they
are incorporated / registred / whatever or not.
|
I'm not so sure. Someone that decides to get rid of their collection may
pick up multiple sales in a week, and go on for a few months like that.
|
Let me rephrase: Saying “feedback is unrelated” is a nonsense because high feedback
is a strong clue of the seller being a professional.
Yes, you can always contrive examples for which a general rule doesn’t apply
but this rule applies and is used by the IRS/HMRS/DGFIP/… when they decide to
go after you.
| | Whereas
a business may get few sales per week. It may not be a very good business, but
still a business if they buy to sell for profit.
|
Note that I didn’t say a low feedback/revenue indicates the seller is a hobbyist.
Indeed, in another thread, I told a seller their not making money was irrelevant
to their professional status.
Some people (mainly from Common Law countries) tend to argue things aren’t “legal”
or “illegal” until they have been judged as such in a court.
For some people, the “hobbyist status” is a bit like that: as the IRS/HMRS/DGFIP/…
hasn’t yet pounced on them or their fellows, they strongly believe the status
exists and applies to them.
As MarieA says, a seller claiming to be hobbyist while they clearly are not is
a strong clue they won’t follow other rules, like consumer laws.
And yes, I’m pretty sure there are actual hobbyists who have a better customer
services than big professional sellers but Pro vs. Hobby is a bit like New vs.
Used: it’s not a question of aspect / experience, it’s a question of status.
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Great comment Sylvain. Especially the last paragraph!
Bon nuit!
Martin
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 09:25 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | […]
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Nonsense. A “hobbyist” with several sales a week isn’t a hobbyist, whether they
are incorporated / registred / whatever or not.
|
Several sales a week of a €0,04 part doesn't make it a business.
The ordervalue is more important than amount of sales.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 09:27 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | […]
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Nonsense. A “hobbyist” with several sales a week isn’t a hobbyist, whether they
are incorporated / registred / whatever or not.
|
Several sales a week of a €0,04 part doesn't make it a business.
The ordervalue is more important than amount of sales.
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Intent, not volume or value, is usually the primary concern. If you buy with
the specific intention of selling all or part of what you've bought, you
are engaged in a trade. This would usually be enough to warrant registering as
a trader with the authorities, irrespective of the number of sales, profit made,
etc.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 09:32 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | […]
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Nonsense. A “hobbyist” with several sales a week isn’t a hobbyist, whether they
are incorporated / registred / whatever or not.
|
Several sales a week of a €0,04 part doesn't make it a business.
The ordervalue is more important than amount of sales.
|
Maybe it varies from country to country, but it is a business if they bought
those parts with the intention of selling them. Even if they bought them for
4 cents and make no profit on each sale, or 10 cents and make a loss each time.
Similarly a person selling a €500 set could perfectly legitimately not be a business.
If they bought a set and it has been part of their collection and they decide
they no longer want it and sell it, then they are not trading as a business.
The value doesn't matter when it comes to whether they are a business.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 09:50 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | […]
Maybe it varies from country to country, but it is a business if they bought
those parts with the intention of selling them. Even if they bought them for
4 cents and make no profit on each sale, or 10 cents and make a loss each time.
Similarly a person selling a €500 set could perfectly legitimately not be a business.
If they bought a set and it has been part of their collection and they decide
they no longer want it and sell it, then they are not trading as a business.
The value doesn't matter when it comes to whether they are a business.
|
Yes.
I know of an ex-car dealer who was bored with his job and quit but continued
to buy and sell used cars as an individual for a couple of years (then he was
re-hired as a “seller extraordinary” because he was that good). He knew the
rules pretty well and limited himself to less than (I think it’s) ten cars a
year. Buy a used car, keep it a few weeks, sell the car. He managed to make
a hefty profit. All legal, and not as a pro.
There also is the Airbnb model (which is greatly abused): the law allows you
to rent your home 120 days a year. It’s not question of profit or value. The
time limit says when your “home” isn’t a home anymore but a hotel room.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 10:31 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | […]
Maybe it varies from country to country, but it is a business if they bought
those parts with the intention of selling them. Even if they bought them for
4 cents and make no profit on each sale, or 10 cents and make a loss each time.
Similarly a person selling a €500 set could perfectly legitimately not be a business.
If they bought a set and it has been part of their collection and they decide
they no longer want it and sell it, then they are not trading as a business.
The value doesn't matter when it comes to whether they are a business.
|
Yes.
I know of an ex-car dealer who was bored with his job and quit but continued
to buy and sell used cars as an individual for a couple of years (then he was
re-hired as a “seller extraordinary” because he was that good). He knew the
rules pretty well and limited himself to less than (I think it’s) ten cars a
year. Buy a used car, keep it a few weeks, sell the car. He managed to make
a hefty profit. All legal, and not as a pro.
There also is the Airbnb model (which is greatly abused): the law allows you
to rent your home 120 days a year. It’s not question of profit or value. The
time limit says when your “home” isn’t a home anymore but a hotel room.
|
Yes, and that is the problem if there is a strict numerical definition of a business.
If BL allowed a seller to make two transactions a week, up to 100 per year, then
a number of stores would make sure they stay just under those limits. Either
by closing each week after two sales, or having a high minimum that they reduce
through the week until they get their two orders, then a massive high minimum
order after two, and so on.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 10:58 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | […]
Yes, and that is the problem if there is a strict numerical definition of a business.
If BL allowed a seller to make two transactions a week, up to 100 per year, then
a number of stores would make sure they stay just under those limits. Either
by closing each week after two sales, or having a high minimum that they reduce
through the week until they get their two orders, then a massive high minimum
order after two, and so on.
|
But the suggestion is just about a “I’m a hobbyist/business” declaration, not
about fixing limits.
I haven’t voted on it yet. The advantages aren’t obvious. I can only see two:
1. Someone saying “I’m a hobbyist” while selling New, with hundreds of FB, is
fishy. But we can already spot them in other ways.
2. Someone saying “I’m a business” while having only a few FB might gain a tiny
bit of trust.
The problems seem more easy to see, mainly steming from the definitions being
unclear and not universal.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StarBrick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 15:03 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | | I know of an ex-car dealer who was bored with his job and quit but continued
to buy and sell used cars as an individual for a couple of years (then he was
re-hired as a “seller extraordinary” because he was that good). He knew the
rules pretty well and limited himself to less than (I think it’s) ten cars a
year. Buy a used car, keep it a few weeks, sell the car. He managed to make
a hefty profit. All legal, and not as a pro.
|
Is that a business? Or someone who loves to have another car every few weeks
and makes money along the way?
Has he become a business by doing so?
The main issue here is how to differentiate between the seller, selling of his
or hers overstock with the intention to get rid of it and the seller purchasing
and reselling parts/sets etc with the intention to generate profit with it
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 15:38 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, StarBrick writes:
| | | | I know of an ex-car dealer who was bored with his job and quit but continued
to buy and sell used cars as an individual for a couple of years (then he was
re-hired as a “seller extraordinary” because he was that good). He knew the
rules pretty well and limited himself to less than (I think it’s) ten cars a
year. Buy a used car, keep it a few weeks, sell the car. He managed to make
a hefty profit. All legal, and not as a pro.
|
Is that a business? Or someone who loves to have another car every few weeks
and makes money along the way?
Has he become a business by doing so?
|
No. It was someone who was a car salesman, who wanted to change job because
he was bored, but who continued to buy and sell after quitting because it’s what
he is. Yes, he loves to have a different car every few weeks, but he also loves
buying and selling and he made good money along the way.
No, that way of life didn’t become a business. His former employer hired him
back, with a new position, part time so that he could do other things too, because
he was their best salesman and he accepted because, eventually, he realised it
was what he was.
As a car salesman, you can’t buy and sell so many cars as a person.
| | The main issue here is how to differentiate between the seller, selling of his
or hers overstock with the intention to get rid of it and the seller purchasing
and reselling parts/sets etc with the intention to generate profit with it
|
Every text and answer (from the fiscal administration’s lowest rank to their
minister) I know about say it’s a case by case decision.
They guy I talked about did that only a couple of years, so he didn’t run afoul
of the fiscal administration. I’m sure he would have ended in trouble if he
had continued a bit longer: cars are exceptions to a lot of thresholds and taxes,
so there was no problems about the income, but the number of “cartes grises”
(vehicle registrations) is limited for an individual and his intent and status
as non-business might have been questionned if the vehicle registration services
had decided to talk to the fiscal administration.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | jethroo | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 16:15 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, jethroo writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
there is already this lovely brick next to the username
|
That's feedback and it's unrelated There are businesses with low feedback
scores and hobbyists with high scores. It doesn't tell you anything about
the legal form of the transaction.
|
Is "legal form of the transaction" relevant if the seller selected the finest
used bricks, having them well packaged and shipped to the customer?
In Germany legaly wise its actually no matter of size as well, if you have the
intention to gain money by selling goods (on long term) you have a business,
period.
I would rather condsider me hobby seller as well (although legaly registered
and paying my taxes). I had to learn quite few a things and would consider my
service way better than 500+ ratings and 5 years ago.
The point was that the ratings can give you an insight of how much the other
guy is into the lego selling/buying thing as well. And even if it is just a hundred
of buying ratings, still the idea of how a good order has to look like is more
established than it might be with 0-20 rating (I said might, so there are definitly
sellers doing a great job within this range)
Best
Carsten
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| | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 04:49 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 83 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| I don't think it would improve anything, and may actually allow what are
in reality businesses to hide behind the personal tab.
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| | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 07:28 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 63 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | I don't think it would improve anything, and may actually allow what are
in reality businesses to hide behind the personal tab.
|
Many do already by omission or ignorance, at least this way there'd be an
active choice for every seller to make.
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| | | | | Author: | WoutR | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 07:01 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 79 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
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| | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 07:22 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 67 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | 62Bricks | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 07:42 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 60 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
In the US it is not so clear cut whether an individual selling Lego online is
a business or not. From the point of view of the Internal Revenue Service if
you are engaged in any activity for the purpose of making a profit, you are in
business and should be reporting that revenue and paying taxes on it. There are
exceptions for "hobbyists," but even there the line is not so clear.
https://www.irs.gov/faqs/small-business-self-employed-other-business/income-expenses/income-expenses
To my mind, the difference between professional and amateur is the manner of
doing business, not the size or tax settings. Anyone can get a tax permit, but
it doesn't mean they're going to run a professional business. Likewise,
a person who is only plowing his revenue back into buying more Lego and meets
the definition of a hobbyist can offer very professional service.
So I think any distinction would be meaningless. Let the feedback rating serve
this purpose.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:00 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, 62Bricks writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
In the US it is not so clear cut whether an individual selling Lego online is
a business or not. From the point of view of the Internal Revenue Service if
you are engaged in any activity for the purpose of making a profit, you are in
business
|
Sounds pretty clear cut to me.
Surely it's the law that counts, not personal opinion?
| | , the difference between professional and amateur is the manner of
doing business, not the size or tax settings. Anyone can get a tax permit, but
it doesn't mean they're going to run a professional business. Likewise,
a person who is only plowing his revenue back into buying more Lego and meets
the definition of a hobbyist can offer very professional service.
So I think any distinction would be meaningless. Let the feedback rating serve
this purpose.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | 62Bricks | | Posted: | Mar 8, 2018 18:48 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 58 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, 62Bricks writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
In the US it is not so clear cut whether an individual selling Lego online is
a business or not. From the point of view of the Internal Revenue Service if
you are engaged in any activity for the purpose of making a profit, you are in
business
|
Sounds pretty clear cut to me.
Surely it's the law that counts, not personal opinion?
|
The law says what a business is - not what "professional" means. The OP appears
to be suggesting that if you are filing taxes on your revenue (for example) that
makes you a "professional."
I take issue with that use of the word in this case, because, as I say, anyone
can get a tax permit. It doesn't make you professional in your dealings.
It would not be any benefit to the buyers here to see a shop labeled "professional"
because of its tax status. What benefits them is seeing if the shop actually
conducts itself like a professional business, and that is what the feedback system
is for.
| |
| | , the difference between professional and amateur is the manner of
doing business, not the size or tax settings. Anyone can get a tax permit, but
it doesn't mean they're going to run a professional business. Likewise,
a person who is only plowing his revenue back into buying more Lego and meets
the definition of a hobbyist can offer very professional service.
So I think any distinction would be meaningless. Let the feedback rating serve
this purpose.
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 8, 2018 19:56 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, 62Bricks writes:
| | In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, 62Bricks writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
In the US it is not so clear cut whether an individual selling Lego online is
a business or not. From the point of view of the Internal Revenue Service if
you are engaged in any activity for the purpose of making a profit, you are in
business
|
Sounds pretty clear cut to me.
Surely it's the law that counts, not personal opinion?
|
The law says what a business is - not what "professional" means. The OP appears
to be suggesting that if you are filing taxes on your revenue (for example) that
makes you a "professional."
I take issue with that use of the word in this case, because, as I say, anyone
can get a tax permit. It doesn't make you professional in your dealings.
It would not be any benefit to the buyers here to see a shop labeled "professional"
because of its tax status. What benefits them is seeing if the shop actually
conducts itself like a professional business, and that is what the feedback system
is for.
|
Given the context - "...and private" - the OP is clearly using the word to refer
to business sellers. You can be a private seller and professional in the way
you do thing, so that's obviously not what was meant.
| |
| |
| | , the difference between professional and amateur is the manner of
doing business, not the size or tax settings. Anyone can get a tax permit, but
it doesn't mean they're going to run a professional business. Likewise,
a person who is only plowing his revenue back into buying more Lego and meets
the definition of a hobbyist can offer very professional service.
So I think any distinction would be meaningless. Let the feedback rating serve
this purpose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | WhiteHorseMatt | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:10 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, 62Bricks writes:
From the point of view of the Internal Revenue Service if
| | you are engaged in any activity for the purpose of making a profit, you are in
business and should be reporting that revenue and paying taxes on it. There are
exceptions for "hobbyists," but even there the line is not so clear.
|
It is the same in the UK. If you are offering goods for sale with the intent
to make a profit, then the income is taxeable and should be declared. So arguably
everyone in the UK listing new bricks for sale would fall under this.
The Inland Revenue does not want people on a small turnover setting up as a business,
declaring a loss, and claiming tax back from their main job. The figure I had
quoted to me was £2K turnover.
The other implication of being a registered business vs just a guy, is consumer
protection legistlation. In EU for example, you have a right to return as part
of distance selling law, and lots of protection regarding description of goods,
being fit for purpose etc. This is completely different if you are buying business
to business, and many of the protections we rely on as a consumer just don't
apply.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:23 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, WhiteHorseMatt writes:
| | In Suggestions, 62Bricks writes:
From the point of view of the Internal Revenue Service if
| | you are engaged in any activity for the purpose of making a profit, you are in
business and should be reporting that revenue and paying taxes on it. There are
exceptions for "hobbyists," but even there the line is not so clear.
|
It is the same in the UK. If you are offering goods for sale with the intent
to make a profit, then the income is taxeable and should be declared. So arguably
everyone in the UK listing new bricks for sale would fall under this.
|
In the UK, all gains are subject to tax unless the law explicitly says otherwise
(ISA interest, gambling wins, etc.). Most people listing new bricks for sale
would be considered a trader, but not all. It's perfectly possible for someone
to buy a set with the intention of building it at some point, only to then leave
it open but unused in a cupboard for years. Selling the bricks in this case wouldn't
be considered a trade and would only attract tax if the gain was so large as
to attract Capital Gains tax.
| | The Inland Revenue does not want people on a small turnover setting up as a business,
declaring a loss, and claiming tax back from their main job. The figure I had
quoted to me was £2K turnover.
|
This isn't true though I've often heard similar things said. People often
say that their BL trade is a hobby and that they're not a business. This
isn't true (at least in the UK). 'Income from a hobby' isn't
a thing under UK law - the only time UK law mentions income from a hobby is when
it precludes losses from the hobby from being set against other income. That's
it. Anyone engaging in a trade should register with HMRC, losses or not.
| | The other implication of being a registered business vs just a guy, is consumer
protection legistlation. In EU for example, you have a right to return as part
of distance selling law, and lots of protection regarding description of goods,
being fit for purpose etc. This is completely different if you are buying business
to business, and many of the protections we rely on as a consumer just don't
apply.
|
This is precisely why the OP's suggestion has merit. If you're a consumer,
knowing who you're buying from - and the resulting rights arising from that
transaction, can only be a benefit.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Addict2Brick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:33 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
Why does the way that this site works strike you as odd? You realize that this
concept is not founded by Bricklink but almost any site where multiple people
can come to one place and sell their stuff. Ebay immediately comes to my mind
but others as well. I belong to other sites where I sell stuff and some people
are hobbyists that use their excess product to fund their hobby and some are
their to pay the bills.
I feel like anyone that actually visits these shops and spends more than a minute
can easily tell a "professional" shop from a small time hobbyist. If someone
can't then they only really have themselves to blame for not spending the
time educating themselves.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 09:04 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
Why does the way that this site works strike you as odd? You realize that this
concept is not founded by Bricklink but almost any site where multiple people
can come to one place and sell their stuff. Ebay immediately comes to my mind
but others as well. I belong to other sites where I sell stuff and some people
are hobbyists that use their excess product to fund their hobby and some are
their to pay the bills.
I feel like anyone that actually visits these shops and spends more than a minute
can easily tell a "professional" shop from a small time hobbyist. If someone
can't then they only really have themselves to blame for not spending the
time educating themselves.
|
You can usually spot a business a mile away. Whether the seller themselves is
legit or not, is something entirely different. Assuming I have certain rights
is one thing, having the 'business'; declare whether they are a business
or not confirms it.
If an obvious business declares themselves a personal seller, this would set
alarm bells ringing. If they're not declaring their trade, what chance they'll
allow you your legal consumer rights if something goes wrong?
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Addict2Brick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 09:41 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
Why does the way that this site works strike you as odd? You realize that this
concept is not founded by Bricklink but almost any site where multiple people
can come to one place and sell their stuff. Ebay immediately comes to my mind
but others as well. I belong to other sites where I sell stuff and some people
are hobbyists that use their excess product to fund their hobby and some are
their to pay the bills.
I feel like anyone that actually visits these shops and spends more than a minute
can easily tell a "professional" shop from a small time hobbyist. If someone
can't then they only really have themselves to blame for not spending the
time educating themselves.
|
You can usually spot a business a mile away. Whether the seller themselves is
legit or not, is something entirely different. Assuming I have certain rights
is one thing, having the 'business'; declare whether they are a business
or not confirms it.
If an obvious business declares themselves a personal seller, this would set
alarm bells ringing. If they're not declaring their trade, what chance they'll
allow you your legal consumer rights if something goes wrong?
|
That's what PayPal is for.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 10:17 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
Why does the way that this site works strike you as odd? You realize that this
concept is not founded by Bricklink but almost any site where multiple people
can come to one place and sell their stuff. Ebay immediately comes to my mind
but others as well. I belong to other sites where I sell stuff and some people
are hobbyists that use their excess product to fund their hobby and some are
their to pay the bills.
I feel like anyone that actually visits these shops and spends more than a minute
can easily tell a "professional" shop from a small time hobbyist. If someone
can't then they only really have themselves to blame for not spending the
time educating themselves.
|
You can usually spot a business a mile away. Whether the seller themselves is
legit or not, is something entirely different. Assuming I have certain rights
is one thing, having the 'business'; declare whether they are a business
or not confirms it.
If an obvious business declares themselves a personal seller, this would set
alarm bells ringing. If they're not declaring their trade, what chance they'll
allow you your legal consumer rights if something goes wrong?
|
That's what PayPal is for.
|
What if what you bought became faulty and the seller didn't want to know?
PayPal wouldn't necessarily refund in such a case, yet consumer law (in the
EU at least) would hold the retailer responsible for putting it right. PayPal
makes invoking some rights easier, but not all.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Addict2Brick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 12:56 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
Why does the way that this site works strike you as odd? You realize that this
concept is not founded by Bricklink but almost any site where multiple people
can come to one place and sell their stuff. Ebay immediately comes to my mind
but others as well. I belong to other sites where I sell stuff and some people
are hobbyists that use their excess product to fund their hobby and some are
their to pay the bills.
I feel like anyone that actually visits these shops and spends more than a minute
can easily tell a "professional" shop from a small time hobbyist. If someone
can't then they only really have themselves to blame for not spending the
time educating themselves.
|
You can usually spot a business a mile away. Whether the seller themselves is
legit or not, is something entirely different. Assuming I have certain rights
is one thing, having the 'business'; declare whether they are a business
or not confirms it.
If an obvious business declares themselves a personal seller, this would set
alarm bells ringing. If they're not declaring their trade, what chance they'll
allow you your legal consumer rights if something goes wrong?
|
That's what PayPal is for.
|
What if what you bought became faulty and the seller didn't want to know?
PayPal wouldn't necessarily refund in such a case, yet consumer law (in the
EU at least) would hold the retailer responsible for putting it right. PayPal
makes invoking some rights easier, but not all.
|
If the Lego becomes faulty? I'm unsure exactly how you mean.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 13:21 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | […]
| | | | | | If an obvious business declares themselves a personal seller, this would set
alarm bells ringing. If they're not declaring their trade, what chance they'll
allow you your legal consumer rights if something goes wrong?
|
That's what PayPal is for.
|
What if what you bought became faulty and the seller didn't want to know?
PayPal wouldn't necessarily refund in such a case, yet consumer law (in the
EU at least) would hold the retailer responsible for putting it right. PayPal
makes invoking some rights easier, but not all.
|
If the Lego becomes faulty? I'm unsure exactly how you mean.
|
If you want to stick with LEGO (whereas MarieA was more general), what about
a motor that fails after a few weeks?
The seller sold it as new. The warranty should be 2 years.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Addict2Brick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 19:01 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | […]
| | | | | | If an obvious business declares themselves a personal seller, this would set
alarm bells ringing. If they're not declaring their trade, what chance they'll
allow you your legal consumer rights if something goes wrong?
|
That's what PayPal is for.
|
What if what you bought became faulty and the seller didn't want to know?
PayPal wouldn't necessarily refund in such a case, yet consumer law (in the
EU at least) would hold the retailer responsible for putting it right. PayPal
makes invoking some rights easier, but not all.
|
If the Lego becomes faulty? I'm unsure exactly how you mean.
|
If you want to stick with LEGO (whereas MarieA was more general), what about
a motor that fails after a few weeks?
The seller sold it as new. The warranty should be 2 years.
|
Isn't that warranty through Lego and not the seller?
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 20:24 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | […]
| | If you want to stick with LEGO (whereas MarieA was more general), what about
a motor that fails after a few weeks?
The seller sold it as new. The warranty should be 2 years.
|
Isn't that warranty through Lego and not the seller?
|
Legally, it’s through the seller.
But usually, sellers tend to redirect you to the manufacturer. And some manufacturers
(as TLG) prefer handling it themselves.
But what if the motor is an old model not produced for a long time? What do
you think TLG will do? They will tell you to go back to the seller.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 19:32 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Speg writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | In Suggestions, WoutR writes:
| | In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
Who will judge? The seller? I think that there are many professional sellers
who are pretending to be private. To be a business, you don't need to be
large, full-time or making a living wage.
|
Well, either you are a business or you're not, legally that's quite
clear-cut. As for the point of hiding a business as you and yorbrick pointed
out, that is a potential reason why it isn't perfect, but that still means
it is an improvement over the current situation. Also, there's no huge incentive
to hide, as many buyers may prefer real shops and also it would look pretty shady
if the seller has a big store or alot of feedback. Also, Vat and sales tax settings
should instantly cause the seller to be labelled professional. Not all professional
sellers use these features, though, so if I were a buyer I would like something
that includes professional sellers without tax settings and that would be immediately
visible and even could be filtered by. Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
Why does the way that this site works strike you as odd? You realize that this
concept is not founded by Bricklink but almost any site where multiple people
can come to one place and sell their stuff. Ebay immediately comes to my mind
but others as well. I belong to other sites where I sell stuff and some people
are hobbyists that use their excess product to fund their hobby and some are
their to pay the bills.
|
I guess you're right, I think that's less common here. When I go to this
Dutch online market site, I know with 100% certainty it's going to be private
individual deals and it will all be a very amateuristic experience, but it makes
it exciting as you never know what you're going to get exactly 
| | I feel like anyone that actually visits these shops and spends more than a minute
can easily tell a "professional" shop from a small time hobbyist. If someone
can't then they only really have themselves to blame for not spending the
time educating themselves.
|
Well, yes, you're right it's usually not difficult to spot. Especially
when you can know by looking at their VAT setting in most cases. But still 2
points I want to make:
1. It saves time if it was an actual official label, especially if it can be
filtered on in search results, so you won't need to work through store terms
to figure it out,
2. With some frequency I see topics in the forum where the OP is "omg look at
what my seller does now" and people respond "omg omg sellers should this, sellers
should that, ..." While part of the comments will be applicable regardless of
seller type, some of these comments just make me sigh as they are about businesses
while the case could be just about some random guy selling off his childhood
Lego. Surely this guy isn't going to dropship you a missing part or something
like that (not that that is a professional obligation, but just an example of
how private sellers are really a different planet). So while I would also educate
myself first, apparently in some cases it could be helpful to have a bit more
awareness.
I think it's annoying for all parties if this distinction is obscure. Buyers
don't know what they're in for, professional sellers don't get proper
benefit from the burden of honouring consumer rights, and private sellers get
slapped with lawbooks when all they wanted was just to trade some Lego pieces
from the attic..
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:53 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | Right now Bricklink is a mall of actual
shops and people having little garage sales and from the front end there's
no difference. That strikes me as odd.
|
The not differentiating between stores is one of the charmes of Bricklink.
Buyers have the most chance to find the parts they need.
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | axaday | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 07:44 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 52 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I have no idea what the point would be. Would Bricklink have two sets of policies
and minimum standards?
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 08:02 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, axaday writes:
| | I have no idea what the point would be. Would Bricklink have two sets of policies
and minimum standards?
|
In many jurisdictions, buyers have vastly different rights depending on whether
or not they're buying from a private individual or a business.
| |
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | nectara | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 07:54 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
|
You don't really need a complex wine with pasta dishes; a fruity, often hearty,
rustic wine is often a good accompaniment. Tomato sauce based pasta dishes like
lasagne and spaghetti bolognese pair well with red wines with refreshing acidity–
try a Montepulciano d'Abruzzo, young Chianti, or Barbera.
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 10:11 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 69 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| It is more than just black and white, hobby vs private vs business.
Take my store for example. I am operating under a 'private business license'.
As in - I am using my real name for absolutely everything - there is no business
name. All the transactions are going through my 'personal' accounts.
But yes, I am using 'business' PayPal account.
I do have an employee, however I am also operating below the threshold where
I am obliged to register as a VAT payer. So as far as VAT matters are concerned
in EU business to business transactions - I can not deduct VAT, and all the goods
and services that I am buying are also VAT inclusive, where applicable.
One more interesting point - in Lithuania there is a law that allows two very
specific exceptions regarding the return of (purchased) goods. Toys and Child
Clothing are *not returnable*. Even if still brand new in sealed packaging, and
you have done nothing but walked out and walked back into the store a minute
later.
So would I get classified as a business, or as a private seller? Am I a professional
seller? This is the single source of income for me and my employee, so I guess
it would be a 'yes'. Am I on par with some of the super-sellers here?
No.
As far as customer service between private and hobby sellers goes.. most hobby
sellers will actually provide a much better customer service than some of the
businesses here at BL.
And I can not even leave an appropriate feedback when I get completely screwed
over by a 'professional' seller. Because I will often get stoplisted,
and that would hurt my business in the long run. There are few stores that would
have a fair number of very well deserved negatives from me, but I am still finding
myself having to buy from them from time to time.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 10:22 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | It is more than just black and white, hobby vs private vs business.
Take my store for example. I am operating under a 'private business license'.
As in - I am using my real name for absolutely everything - there is no business
name. All the transactions are going through my 'personal' accounts.
But yes, I am using 'business' PayPal account.
|
Yes, this is called being self-employed in some countries, acting as an independent
in some others, etc. It's a common occurrence used by some professionals
too (some doctors remain independents despite the inherent fiscal risks). In
terms of most consumer law, and many other areas of law (such as health and safety,
employers laws, etc.) such people are still treated as a business.
| | I do have an employee, however I am also operating below the threshold where
I am obliged to register as a VAT payer. So as far as VAT matters are concerned
in EU business to business transactions - I can not deduct VAT, and all the goods
and services that I am buying are also VAT inclusive, where applicable.
One more interesting point - in Lithuania there is a law that allows two very
specific exceptions regarding the return of (purchased) goods. Toys and Child
Clothing are *not returnable*. Even if still brand new in sealed packaging, and
you have done nothing but walked out and walked back into the store a minute
later.
|
As an expert in EU consumer law, I frankly don't believe this. Used clothing,
fair enough, but brand new toys in their original packaging? Doubtful.
| | So would I get classified as a business, or as a private seller? Am I a professional
seller? This is the single source of income for me and my employee, so I guess
it would be a 'yes'. Am I on par with some of the super-sellers here?
No.
As far as customer service between private and hobby sellers goes.. most hobby
sellers will actually provide a much better customer service than some of the
businesses here at BL.
|
I completely agree with this. 'Hobbyist' sellers - whether recognised
in law or not - would be expected to provide greater attention to detail for
one thing, and probably a bigger sense of pride in dealing with orders the way
they would want their own purchases to be dealt with.
| | And I can not even leave an appropriate feedback when I get completely screwed
over by a 'professional' seller. Because I will often get stoplisted,
and that would hurt my business in the long run. There are few stores that would
have a fair number of very well deserved negatives from me, but I am still finding
myself having to buy from them from time to time.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 17:31 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | It is more than just black and white, hobby vs private vs business.
Take my store for example. I am operating under a 'private business license'.
As in - I am using my real name for absolutely everything - there is no business
name. All the transactions are going through my 'personal' accounts.
But yes, I am using 'business' PayPal account.
|
Yes, this is called being self-employed in some countries, acting as an independent
in some others, etc. It's a common occurrence used by some professionals
too (some doctors remain independents despite the inherent fiscal risks). In
terms of most consumer law, and many other areas of law (such as health and safety,
employers laws, etc.) such people are still treated as a business.
| | I do have an employee, however I am also operating below the threshold where
I am obliged to register as a VAT payer. So as far as VAT matters are concerned
in EU business to business transactions - I can not deduct VAT, and all the goods
and services that I am buying are also VAT inclusive, where applicable.
One more interesting point - in Lithuania there is a law that allows two very
specific exceptions regarding the return of (purchased) goods. Toys and Child
Clothing are *not returnable*. Even if still brand new in sealed packaging, and
you have done nothing but walked out and walked back into the store a minute
later.
|
As an expert in EU consumer law, I frankly don't believe this. Used clothing,
fair enough, but brand new toys in their original packaging? Doubtful.
|
Phew. Finding the actual text proved to be a bit more difficult than I anticipated
but here it is
https://www.e-tar.lt/portal/lt/legalAct/712337a0164711e4afafe56485a7e49a
The green bulb and text 'Galioja' means that this piece of law is currently
in effect.
What you want to look at are the exceptions listed under 17.1 - they define the
goods that the seller is not obliged to return or to exchange. Buyer may only
do so if the seller agrees to. The most important one for us (9503) is at 17.22
Also just to add - don't blame you at all for doubting this. The list is
quite large. And, lucky me, google translate does.. a good enough job. If you
want a better translation of some lines - let me know.
Replacement and return of good quality goods
14. Proper quality goods are changed and returned in the cases and under the
conditions specified in Article 6.362 of the Civil Code.
15. Plants, animals and food of good quality are not altered or returned.
16. Goods used in specialized (only for use) stores, markets and municipal places
designated by the municipality administration or by distance contracts, as well
as weighing and measuring goods that were specially prepared, cut, cut, and so
on, may only be exchanged or returned with the consent of the seller.
17. The consumer's request to replace the purchased good quality goods with
similar goods or to repay the money paid for the reasons set out in Article 6.362
of the Civil Code can only be satisfied when the seller agrees to purchase the
following goods:
17.1. tobacco and tobacco products (codes according to the European Community
Combined Nomenclature, approved by Council Regulation (EEC) No 2658/87 of 23
July 1987 on the tariff and statistical nomenclature and on the Common Customs
Tariff (OJ 2004 Special Edition, Chapter 2 Volume 2, p. 382), as last amended
by Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) No 1001/2013 of 4 October 2013 (OJ
2013 L 290, p. 1) (hereinafter referred to as the Combined Nomenclature code)
- 2401-2402);
17.2. perfumery, cosmetic and toilet preparations (codes in the Combined Nomenclature
- 3303-3307);
17.3 photographic and cinematographic goods (codes according to the Combined
Nomenclature - 3701-3707);
17.4 printed books, reproductions and other products of the graphic arts industry
(codes according to the Combined Nomenclature - 4901-4911);
17.5 fabrics (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature: 5007, 5111-5113,
5208-5212, 5309, 5310, 5311, 5407-5408, 5512-5516);
17.6 carpet floor coverings, excluding carpets and rugs (codes in the Combined
Nomenclature - 5701-5705.00);
17.7. knitted men's, boys', ladies' or girls' underwear (codes
according to the Combined Nomenclature 6107-6109);
17.8 baby clothing (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 6111, 6209),
17.9 pantyhose, socks, half-socks and the like (code according to the Combined
Nomenclature - 6115);
17.10 Men's, boys ', women's or girls' underpants, night shirts,
pajamas and similar articles (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature 6207-6208);
17.11. bras, waists, corsets and similar articles (code according to the Combined
Nomenclature 6212);
17.12 gems, precious stones, precious metals and articles thereof, other than
artificial jewelery (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature: 7101-7116,
7118);
17.13 machinery and mechanical appliances (codes in the Combined Nomenclature
8401-8487);
17.14. electric machines and apparatus, sound recording and reproducing apparatus
and television image and sound recorders and reproducers (codes according to
the Combined Nomenclature 8501-8548);
17.15. ground vehicles (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature 8701-8716);
17.16. boats, boats and craft (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 8901-8908);
17.17. optical, photographic, cinematographic, measuring, checking, medical or
surgical instruments and apparatus (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 9001-9033);
17.18. watches (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature - 9101-9114);
17.19 musical instruments (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature - 9201-9209);
17.20 weapons and ammunition (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 9301-9307);
17.21. furniture, bedding, candlesticks (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature
- 9401-9406);
17.22. toys, games, other than sports and fishing tackle (codes in the Combined
Nomenclature - 9503-9505, 9508);
17.23. works of art, collectors' items and antiques (codes according to the
Combined Nomenclature - 9701-9706).
| |
| | So would I get classified as a business, or as a private seller? Am I a professional
seller? This is the single source of income for me and my employee, so I guess
it would be a 'yes'. Am I on par with some of the super-sellers here?
No.
As far as customer service between private and hobby sellers goes.. most hobby
sellers will actually provide a much better customer service than some of the
businesses here at BL.
|
I completely agree with this. 'Hobbyist' sellers - whether recognised
in law or not - would be expected to provide greater attention to detail for
one thing, and probably a bigger sense of pride in dealing with orders the way
they would want their own purchases to be dealt with.
| | And I can not even leave an appropriate feedback when I get completely screwed
over by a 'professional' seller. Because I will often get stoplisted,
and that would hurt my business in the long run. There are few stores that would
have a fair number of very well deserved negatives from me, but I am still finding
myself having to buy from them from time to time.
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 19:13 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 63 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | In Suggestions, MarieA writes:
| | In Suggestions, enig writes:
| | It is more than just black and white, hobby vs private vs business.
Take my store for example. I am operating under a 'private business license'.
As in - I am using my real name for absolutely everything - there is no business
name. All the transactions are going through my 'personal' accounts.
But yes, I am using 'business' PayPal account.
|
Yes, this is called being self-employed in some countries, acting as an independent
in some others, etc. It's a common occurrence used by some professionals
too (some doctors remain independents despite the inherent fiscal risks). In
terms of most consumer law, and many other areas of law (such as health and safety,
employers laws, etc.) such people are still treated as a business.
| | I do have an employee, however I am also operating below the threshold where
I am obliged to register as a VAT payer. So as far as VAT matters are concerned
in EU business to business transactions - I can not deduct VAT, and all the goods
and services that I am buying are also VAT inclusive, where applicable.
One more interesting point - in Lithuania there is a law that allows two very
specific exceptions regarding the return of (purchased) goods. Toys and Child
Clothing are *not returnable*. Even if still brand new in sealed packaging, and
you have done nothing but walked out and walked back into the store a minute
later.
|
As an expert in EU consumer law, I frankly don't believe this. Used clothing,
fair enough, but brand new toys in their original packaging? Doubtful.
|
Phew. Finding the actual text proved to be a bit more difficult than I anticipated
but here it is
https://www.e-tar.lt/portal/lt/legalAct/712337a0164711e4afafe56485a7e49a
The green bulb and text 'Galioja' means that this piece of law is currently
in effect.
What you want to look at are the exceptions listed under 17.1 - they define the
goods that the seller is not obliged to return or to exchange. Buyer may only
do so if the seller agrees to. The most important one for us (9503) is at 17.22
Also just to add - don't blame you at all for doubting this. The list is
quite large. And, lucky me, google translate does.. a good enough job. If you
want a better translation of some lines - let me know.
Replacement and return of good quality goods
14. Proper quality goods are changed and returned in the cases and under the
conditions specified in Article 6.362 of the Civil Code.
15. Plants, animals and food of good quality are not altered or returned.
16. Goods used in specialized (only for use) stores, markets and municipal places
designated by the municipality administration or by distance contracts, as well
as weighing and measuring goods that were specially prepared, cut, cut, and so
on, may only be exchanged or returned with the consent of the seller.
17. The consumer's request to replace the purchased good quality goods with
similar goods or to repay the money paid for the reasons set out in Article 6.362
of the Civil Code can only be satisfied when the seller agrees to purchase the
following goods:
17.1. tobacco and tobacco products (codes according to the European Community
Combined Nomenclature, approved by Council Regulation (EEC) No 2658/87 of 23
July 1987 on the tariff and statistical nomenclature and on the Common Customs
Tariff (OJ 2004 Special Edition, Chapter 2 Volume 2, p. 382), as last amended
by Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) No 1001/2013 of 4 October 2013 (OJ
2013 L 290, p. 1) (hereinafter referred to as the Combined Nomenclature code)
- 2401-2402);
17.2. perfumery, cosmetic and toilet preparations (codes in the Combined Nomenclature
- 3303-3307);
17.3 photographic and cinematographic goods (codes according to the Combined
Nomenclature - 3701-3707);
17.4 printed books, reproductions and other products of the graphic arts industry
(codes according to the Combined Nomenclature - 4901-4911);
17.5 fabrics (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature: 5007, 5111-5113,
5208-5212, 5309, 5310, 5311, 5407-5408, 5512-5516);
17.6 carpet floor coverings, excluding carpets and rugs (codes in the Combined
Nomenclature - 5701-5705.00);
17.7. knitted men's, boys', ladies' or girls' underwear (codes
according to the Combined Nomenclature 6107-6109);
17.8 baby clothing (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 6111, 6209),
17.9 pantyhose, socks, half-socks and the like (code according to the Combined
Nomenclature - 6115);
17.10 Men's, boys ', women's or girls' underpants, night shirts,
pajamas and similar articles (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature 6207-6208);
17.11. bras, waists, corsets and similar articles (code according to the Combined
Nomenclature 6212);
17.12 gems, precious stones, precious metals and articles thereof, other than
artificial jewelery (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature: 7101-7116,
7118);
17.13 machinery and mechanical appliances (codes in the Combined Nomenclature
8401-8487);
17.14. electric machines and apparatus, sound recording and reproducing apparatus
and television image and sound recorders and reproducers (codes according to
the Combined Nomenclature 8501-8548);
17.15. ground vehicles (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature 8701-8716);
17.16. boats, boats and craft (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 8901-8908);
17.17. optical, photographic, cinematographic, measuring, checking, medical or
surgical instruments and apparatus (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 9001-9033);
17.18. watches (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature - 9101-9114);
17.19 musical instruments (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature - 9201-9209);
17.20 weapons and ammunition (codes in the Combined Nomenclature - 9301-9307);
17.21. furniture, bedding, candlesticks (codes according to the Combined Nomenclature
- 9401-9406);
17.22. toys, games, other than sports and fishing tackle (codes in the Combined
Nomenclature - 9503-9505, 9508);
17.23. works of art, collectors' items and antiques (codes according to the
Combined Nomenclature - 9701-9706).
| |
| | So would I get classified as a business, or as a private seller? Am I a professional
seller? This is the single source of income for me and my employee, so I guess
it would be a 'yes'. Am I on par with some of the super-sellers here?
No.
As far as customer service between private and hobby sellers goes.. most hobby
sellers will actually provide a much better customer service than some of the
businesses here at BL.
|
I completely agree with this. 'Hobbyist' sellers - whether recognised
in law or not - would be expected to provide greater attention to detail for
one thing, and probably a bigger sense of pride in dealing with orders the way
they would want their own purchases to be dealt with.
| | And I can not even leave an appropriate feedback when I get completely screwed
over by a 'professional' seller. Because I will often get stoplisted,
and that would hurt my business in the long run. There are few stores that would
have a fair number of very well deserved negatives from me, but I am still finding
myself having to buy from them from time to time.
|
|
|
It's probably Google Translate that's not dealing with the nuance correctly,
but point 17 doesn't really make any sense given the context you're providing.
If it is as you say, which I'm not doubting, then I don't see how that
can possibly be compatible with EU directives covering distance selling. Perhaps
it's saying a retailer is under no obligation to allow returns of toys bought
in-store, which would be fine.
It's like that near-mythical Italian law that prohibits sending toys through
the post, which does exist for those who still doubt, it is legal only insofar
as it doesn't impede with Italy's obligations under EU laws governing
the single market, and EU trade agreements with third-party nations that Italy
is bound by.
|
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| | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 10:37 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | And I can not even leave an appropriate feedback when I get completely screwed
over by a 'professional' seller. Because I will often get stoplisted,
and that would hurt my business in the long run. There are few stores that would
have a fair number of very well deserved negatives from me, but I am still finding
myself having to buy from them from time to time.
|
That doesn't have anything to do with them being business vs private though,
is it?
And if you are completely screwed over by them, not just a little screwed over
but completely, why buy from them again?
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | enig | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 18:03 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | | | And I can not even leave an appropriate feedback when I get completely screwed
over by a 'professional' seller. Because I will often get stoplisted,
and that would hurt my business in the long run. There are few stores that would
have a fair number of very well deserved negatives from me, but I am still finding
myself having to buy from them from time to time.
|
That doesn't have anything to do with them being business vs private though,
is it?
|
Except that "in the real world" such (professional) sellers with such horrible
practices would be getting much less business than in BrickLink world.
| |
And if you are completely screwed over by them, not just a little screwed over
but completely, why buy from them again?
|
Completely screwed over as in
* working on tight deadlines (for my customers) and receiving parts that are
nowhere close "NEW". Not talking about an odd little nick or a random scratch.
I am no better. But situations where whole lots must be re-ordered from elsewhere
again, because the were either stored improperly, maybe even mechanical sorting
was used or gods know what.. Overall also resulting in a delay of another week
or two.
* constantly shipping incomplete orders and only notifying after the fact. More
expenses ordering from elsewhere again, not even to mention that the missing
parts perhaps were the key in placing that specific order. List of parts purchases
from OTHER 20-30 sellers would also have likely been different, if I would not
have placed the order in question.
* Some rare and expensive parts - straight to the bin.
Why shop again? Because by doing all of the above the seller is offering prices
that are unbeatable. With time you just learn to work around the flaws of a particular
seller, and try to minimize the potential damage if things go wrong 
Bonus:
me (there was a reason for asking)
| | Payment has been made. Please pack nicely - thank you so much!
|
them
| | | | hello thanks we shiped maximum fast.
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| | | | | Author: | Brick.Door | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 11:41 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| There was a long thread recently asking what attributes buyers are looking for
in a seller. I don't think most buyers would care about whether the seller
is a person or a business, they care how quickly and accurately orders are filled.
But really it should be Bricklink asking these questions of all buyers. Find
out what they really want, and have a special class of "preferred" or "gold star"
sellers that meet these criteria.
Also the feedback system could use an upgrade. Calculating the % praise to 2
decimal places doesn't really to much to separate the good from the best.
|
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| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Teup | | Posted: | Mar 7, 2018 18:32 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Thanks for the input, a bit much to reply to it all and I would become repetitive
if I did but just to clear up some things,
This suggestion is not intended to uncover illegal practises. That too is an
important issue but that is unrelated to my current suggestion. I know, a seller
who would be illegally running a business will not want to label themself as
a professional seller. And actually that is a good thing - they should not, because
they are not, even though they should be. It's just a piece of information
for the buyer to know whether consumer rights apply or not.
And conversely, even if a professional seller would go and label their shop as
private, firstly on inspection the authorities wouldn't like that, but most
of all, let such a seller just go ahead and hide their business. If they do not
want to admit they run a business, then they probably would not have given your
rights anyway, so actually it's good to know they're letting you know
they are not a professional business.
I'm not a buyer on Bricklink anymore but I would certainly want to have this
info. I buy both from stores and from people occasionally but I always do so
consciously and with a specific mindset about it. I used to have the Bricklink
VAT setting switched off (while I did pay VAT) and got two or three inquiries
of buyers wanting to know whether I was a business or not (mainly regarding VAT).
Good thing they asked, but I think it should always be visible.
As for the gray area issue, I don't know exactly about other countries, but
I imagine that in most places, it is actually fairly clear-cut. The fact that
in practise there's some gray area in terms of store size isn't relevant
for the legal side of things. You are either known to your national authorities
to sell Lego or you are not. You have a business number or you do not. Consumer
rights apply or they do not apply. I mean, if there's a consumer rights program
on TV where they talk about your rights when dealing with companies, this story
either applies to your Bricklink store or it does not. The case enig pointed
out is probably the most compelling argument, but still I don't think it
would defeat the feature if we'd just leave that up to the seller's own
discretion then, to let buyers know if for the purposes of the transaction they
will or will not honour the rights and regulations that apply to businesses.
Whether the label matches actual reality isn't even crucially important,
as long as the seller will act in a way that corresponds to what can be expected
from that label, so that buyers will know what they're in for.
I really think it could save trouble. There are recurring topics that just boil
down to this difference between private and professional. A professional seller
is responsible for the arrival of your order and should accept returns, with
a private seller it all depends on what you agree on. Knowing this from the start
saves tedious discussions.
In Suggestions, Teup writes:
| | I have no real personal reason to be posting this suggestion and haven't
thought about what it would mean for my own business, but just something I want
to throw out there as I've been thinking about it for a while.
Why not separate professional sellers and private sellers? I mean with an icon,
a label, a colour, something like that. Right now there are private persons just
getting rid of some old parts they aren't using, and online stores that use
Bricklink as their platform. An entirely different world in every aspect, but
they will show up in exactly the same way.
For years and years there's this eternal clash going on between buyers and
sellers and it seems like they sometimes speak different languages when the buyers
demand "their rights" and the seller has no idea what they're talking about.
Much if not most of the grief going on on Bricklink may be caused by buyers buying
from private sellers and expecting business service. The main example I can think
of now is about whose problem it is when a package is lost, but also tax and
refund issues get confusing if it's unclear whether we're talking about
two people trading or about consumer rights.
So how about labels for private sellers and professional sellers?
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| | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Mar 8, 2018 06:45 | | Subject: | Re: Separate professional and private sellers | | Viewed: | 72 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | I really think it could save trouble. There are recurring topics that just boil
down to this difference between private and professional. A professional seller
is responsible for the arrival of your order and should accept returns, with
a private seller it all depends on what you agree on. Knowing this from the start
saves tedious discussions.
|
I think the problem is that it might unfairly hit private sellers. If a seller
is private (selling off a collection, for example), that doesn't mean that
they won't refund a buyer if an item goes missing. Private sellers can be
some of the best sellers on here, honestly pointing out the minutest of condition
problems with a sealed box for example. However, if the view is that private
= no consumer rights, then the seller will be hit with lower sales as buyers
will avoid them, even if they put in their terms that they refund for lost parcels,
as those terms won't even get read.
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Netherlands, Utrecht
Germany, Brandenburg
France, Nouvelle-Aquitaine
United Kingdom, England
Belgium, Flemish Brabant
USA, Missouri
Lithuania, Panevėžys