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| | | Author: | StormChaser  | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 07:00 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 256 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Discarded | |
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| | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 07:23 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| The problem with this suggestion is that they don't need to pay people to
work doing inventories so long as people volunteer to do this work. It doesn't
have to be paid for work if people are willing to do it for free. A similar suggestion
came up at the time when BL stopped BO from using the catalogue and while some
people stopped submitting, others continued. Even if the catalogue is owned by
a private company, if people want to contribute towards it then they will continue
to do so. If one person drops out, then another will step in.
If I have something to sell, and it is not already in the catalogue, then it
makes sense to add it so I can sell it. And BL know that.
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| | | | | | | Author: | bb414973 | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 07:32 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 85 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | The problem with this suggestion is that they don't need to pay people to
work doing inventories so long as people volunteer to do this work. It doesn't
have to be paid for work if people are willing to do it for free. A similar suggestion
came up at the time when BL stopped BO from using the catalogue and while some
people stopped submitting, others continued. Even if the catalogue is owned by
a private company, if people want to contribute towards it then they will continue
to do so. If one person drops out, then another will step in.
If I have something to sell, and it is not already in the catalogue, then it
makes sense to add it so I can sell it. And BL know that.
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Except that's not true for everyone. A few sellers in this very thread have
admitted to holding on to sets because they were not inventoried. They had the
set in hand, wanted to sell it yet didn't submit the inventory for whatever
reason.
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| | | | | | | Author: | StormChaser | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 07:49 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 80 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | The problem with this suggestion is that they don't need to pay people to
work doing inventories so long as people volunteer to do this work.
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True. And I suppose one could make the argument they are already paying everyone
by keeping fees low. Compensating contributors comes with a cost, so it could
necessitate an increase in fees. I guess I should have thought even more carefully
than I did before posting. 
But that's what discussion is for. I'm willing to change my mind on
anything I believe, although it would take a lot to convince me that the community
has any ownership of the catalog. And if we don't own it, then what are
working for?
It's the difference between buying and renting a house - a landlord can evict
you and demolish the house anytime he wants. I've put a lot of work into
this house.
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 11:05 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 55 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
| | In Suggestions, yorbrick writes:
| | The problem with this suggestion is that they don't need to pay people to
work doing inventories so long as people volunteer to do this work.
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True. And I suppose one could make the argument they are already paying everyone
by keeping fees low. Compensating contributors comes with a cost, so it could
necessitate an increase in fees. I guess I should have thought even more carefully
than I did before posting.
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I imagine there would be an increase in fees to compensate anyone, whether it
is financially through a paid position or via other incentives for doing it voluntarily.
It's rare I buy anything on release, especially for sale here as I tend only
to sell things I don't want rather than buy to sell, so I rarely have things
first but even so I'll add them if they are missing.
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| | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 07:51 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 89 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
| | After careful thought, I believe I have come up with a suggestion which will
resolve a couple of issues.
My suggestion is that BrickLink take one of the two following courses of action:
(A) Convert all of your official volunteer positions to paid positions (as full
or part-time employment, whether on-site or telecommuting from across the world).
Pay all those who contribute catalog items/inventories/approved changes to your
website, whether in cash or some other benefit. Keep the BrickLink catalog as
your property.
(B) Continue operating off volunteer labor to expand and maintain the catalog
and perform other site functions like forum moderation and language translations.
Return the BrickLink catalog to the community as an open source database or
some other form of community-owned property. Consult with the community regarding
changes to their catalog and take their input seriously.
In the case of (A), it doesn’t matter what brands you add to the website. It’s
your website and you’re paying people to work here. If I don’t like your decisions,
then I can shop elsewhere. I’d probably be okay with adding other brands, though,
because, after all, BrickLink is your property to do with as you see fit. And,
honestly, the BrickArms product integration into the catalog was actually handled
well if these things must be added.
In the case of (B), I wouldn’t like adding other brands and would say so. However,
I would accept the additions because I knew that you cared about and had done
right by the community and just wanted more profit. And, honestly, some people
do want a BrickLink-style website for Playmobil and other similar products –
this has been expressed in the forum several times. I don’t mind sharing the
catalog if I can ignore what I don’t want to see (and I would ignore anything
not LEGO).
For me the BrickArms discussion has revealed a deeper dissatisfaction that I’ve
had with BrickLink for years, but never could properly articulate. For me, I
have only recently realized, it’s not fully even about other brands. For me
it’s this: it is not morally right to expect people to work unpaid for something
they do not own.
The fact that some of us (or even one of us, but for some contributing to BrickLink
is a part-time job and I am one of them) have worked unpaid for years is something
we should be ashamed of.
When one guy owned the website he needed help, but times have changed. BrickLink
is a large business now. Act like one. BrickLink has had the best of both worlds
for years, but enough is enough.
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First off, I'm sorry you are quitting as an admin and would like to thank
you for your contributions including way before you had that role.
I'm voting no to your suggestion though as I don't think the system is
that broken. For A I'm not sure that will give us the quality resources,
just those who want to get paid for uploading something rather than being passionate
about the content. For B I don't agree open sourcing the catalog will help
maintain it, just open it up to more wannabe Bricklinks and diluting the revenue
for both the site and its sellers. That is not a good strategy for the success
of BL IMO.
I think there is scope to open up catalog contribution to more members, maybe
there could be some form of recognition for this but I would not want to see
that linked to any conflict of interest like individual store promotion for example.
At the end of the day it is in all our interests to help maintain the catalog
but I'd be less happy to help if it were then available for other people
to just help themselves to and use it to sell elsewhere - my contributions could
be encouraging sales to be taken away from BL which is really not what I want
to achieve, if I contribute to BL that is where I want to see any benefit.
Robert
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| | | | | Author: | WoutR | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 08:43 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
| | (...)
The fact that some of us (or even one of us, but for some contributing to BrickLink
is a part-time job and I am one of them) have worked unpaid for years is something
we should be ashamed of.
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I do voluntary work for several organisations. It is work I enjoy, and for causes
that I like to support. I do not see any reason to be ashamed.
I expect to have a respectful and pleasant relation with those organisations,
if that is not possible then I will spend my time somewhere else. See www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=1066729
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| | | | | Author: | jodawill | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 10:00 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 82 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
| | After careful thought, I believe I have come up with a suggestion which will
resolve a couple of issues.
My suggestion is that BrickLink take one of the two following courses of action:
(A) Convert all of your official volunteer positions to paid positions (as full
or part-time employment, whether on-site or telecommuting from across the world).
Pay all those who contribute catalog items/inventories/approved changes to your
website, whether in cash or some other benefit. Keep the BrickLink catalog as
your property.
(B) Continue operating off volunteer labor to expand and maintain the catalog
and perform other site functions like forum moderation and language translations.
Return the BrickLink catalog to the community as an open source database or
some other form of community-owned property. Consult with the community regarding
changes to their catalog and take their input seriously.
In the case of (A), it doesn’t matter what brands you add to the website. It’s
your website and you’re paying people to work here. If I don’t like your decisions,
then I can shop elsewhere. I’d probably be okay with adding other brands, though,
because, after all, BrickLink is your property to do with as you see fit. And,
honestly, the BrickArms product integration into the catalog was actually handled
well if these things must be added.
In the case of (B), I wouldn’t like adding other brands and would say so. However,
I would accept the additions because I knew that you cared about and had done
right by the community and just wanted more profit. And, honestly, some people
do want a BrickLink-style website for Playmobil and other similar products –
this has been expressed in the forum several times. I don’t mind sharing the
catalog if I can ignore what I don’t want to see (and I would ignore anything
not LEGO).
For me the BrickArms discussion has revealed a deeper dissatisfaction that I’ve
had with BrickLink for years, but never could properly articulate. For me, I
have only recently realized, it’s not fully even about other brands. For me
it’s this: it is not morally right to expect people to work unpaid for something
they do not own.
The fact that some of us (or even one of us, but for some contributing to BrickLink
is a part-time job and I am one of them) have worked unpaid for years is something
we should be ashamed of.
When one guy owned the website he needed help, but times have changed. BrickLink
is a large business now. Act like one. BrickLink has had the best of both worlds
for years, but enough is enough.
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I agree with B completely. The catalog was built by the community. It would be
impossible to compensate all the people who've put their time into it over
the years. The entire catalog should be released under the GFDL.
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| | | | | Author: | mfav | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 15:17 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 84 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| | | For me it’s this: it is not morally right to expect people to work unpaid for something they do not own.
The fact that some of us (or even one of us, but for some contributing to BrickLink
is a part-time job and I am one of them) have worked unpaid for years is something
we should be ashamed of.
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While avoiding any comment about morality or shame, and intending this statement
with absolute sincerity, if you and the eight or so other volunteer administrators
and contributors simply walk away from those duties, it shouldn't be too
long before the consequences of that action becomes apparent to ownership.
The critical resources you few provide are essential to the solid core business.
As that core remains solid, and not an expense or otherwise a concern to management,
this enables the site be able to shift focus and resources away from the core.
In management's mind you're not worth anything because you're not
getting paid. To change management's perception, though, it's going to
take a collective exodus of volunteers. Not one dribbling out and another dribbling
in...
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| | | | | | | Author: | chetzler | | Posted: | Dec 11, 2017 19:16 | | Subject: | Re: For Your Consideration: A Suggestion | | Viewed: | 69 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| In Suggestions, mfav writes:
| | | | For me it’s this: it is not morally right to expect people to work unpaid for something they do not own.
The fact that some of us (or even one of us, but for some contributing to BrickLink
is a part-time job and I am one of them) have worked unpaid for years is something
we should be ashamed of.
|
While avoiding any comment about morality or shame, and intending this statement
with absolute sincerity, if you and the eight or so other volunteer administrators
and contributors simply walk away from those duties, it shouldn't be too
long before the consequences of that action becomes apparent to ownership.
|
I've been thinking the same thing the last couple of days. The catalog administrators
could bring this site to a grinding halt, at least long enough for the management
to feel the effect while they scrambled to find and train replacements. It's
almost surreal how much power is vested in just a handful of volunteers!
I'm not suggesting or encouraging any of the admins to do this and would
not judge any decisions any of them make: they have put a lot of blood and sweat
into this catalog and I can imagine it would be a difficult thing to walk away
from. However, I would not shed a single tear if the BrickLink management suddenly
found that their catalog was no longer self-updating.
It is telling that two admins have left in as many months, both of them long-time
contributors both in terms of submissions and admin duties.
I've been a long-time supporter of using volunteers to maintain the catalog
and I've added a fair amount of items and inventories myself. But after
this announcement both my willingness and desire to do so is gone. The management
has finally exhausted any good will that this community might have managed to
maintain through all the debacles of the past couple of years.
| | The critical resources you few provide are essential to the solid core business.
As that core remains solid, and not an expense or otherwise a concern to management,
this enables the site be able to shift focus and resources away from the core.
In management's mind you're not worth anything because you're not
getting paid. To change management's perception, though, it's going to
take a collective exodus of volunteers. Not one dribbling out and another dribbling
in...
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USA, Oklahoma
United Kingdom, England
Belgium, Flemish Brabant
Netherlands, Zuid-Holland
