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| | | Author: | JulieK  | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:00 | | Subject: | Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 443 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
|
| http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's  posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
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| | | | | Author: | Miro78 | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:02 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 76 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
Yes vote for me!
Miro
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| | | | | Author: | bb186511 | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:07 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 74 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
You have my vote!
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| | | | | | | Author: | bulkbuyer | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:11 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 76 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| It's like this:
Bricklink and it's members work hard to get the catolog a function able tool.
It's not right for other companies just steal (or share) the exact tools,
photos or info that bricklink has put together for it's own purposes and
site.
If brickowl wants to have their own catolog they need to create their own.
|
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | bb186511 | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:16 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 75 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, jjaredd writes:
| | It's like this:
Bricklink and it's members work hard to get the catolog a function able tool.
It's not right for other companies just steal (or share) the exact tools,
photos or info that bricklink has put together for it's own purposes and
site.
If brickowl wants to have their own catolog they need to create their own.
|
I voted yes and that vote stands regardless of your opinion. Not sure why you
responded to me for my yes vote but if you don't like the idea then vote
no. A simple procedure really. 
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | JulieK | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:32 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 74 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, jjaredd writes:
| | It's like this:
Bricklink and it's members work hard to get the catolog a function able tool.
It's not right for other companies just steal (or share) the exact tools,
photos or info that bricklink has put together for it's own purposes and
site.
If brickowl wants to have their own catolog they need to create their own.
|
I shared your opinions at first, until I read the referenced post in my suggestion.
Julie
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Melanie01 | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:42 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 89 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | In Suggestions, jjaredd writes:
| | It's like this:
Bricklink and it's members work hard to get the catolog a function able tool.
It's not right for other companies just steal (or share) the exact tools,
photos or info that bricklink has put together for it's own purposes and
site.
If brickowl wants to have their own catolog they need to create their own.
|
I shared your opinions at first, until I read the referenced post in my suggestion.
Julie
|
Same here, Julie. Dan chose his right hand well. Yes vote here.
Melanie
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| | | | | Author: | bb138026 | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 13:08 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
Yes!
And Bricklink shall remain *the* global reference for Lego parts everywhere,
the entire hobbyist Lego world will revolve around Bricklink.
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| | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 14:00 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 86 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
BO is only using BL partnumbers as a cross reference for the users, just in the
same way it is using TLG numbers and Brickset numbers. As a matter of fact, right
now BL is running behind: try to find head 90752 (TLG ID number) and you won't
find it here 
So I fully support the idea of a master catalog, but that master catalog should
include any other *known* numbering IMHO. As far as I can tell, right now BO
is the master catalog as it makes cross references to any other community site
without exception and without being worried about it's competition (after
all, any BL reference mentioned on BO *might* in fact draw people BACK to BL).
So my vote is YES, up to BL to prove they can actually *be* the master catalog
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| | | | | Author: | DagsBricks | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 14:18 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 83 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Voted yes with a caveat for open-source, not leased. I would hate to waste a
bunch of effort into re-filling all the holes in another potential master catalog.
But I will if I have to.
Brian
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| | | | | Author: | MassBricks | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 15:59 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 83 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
I vote yes, specifically with a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/
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| | | | | | | Author: | albumman | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 16:21 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, MassBricks writes:
| | In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
I vote yes, specifically with a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/
|
That's very close to what I hope happens, but i'm not posting my "vote"
because
#1 my desire is obvious and
#2 it is not really up for a vote.
The new owners will decide which path to go down. I'm trying to share my
opinion and I hope they listen to it because I think it is best for all parties,
but I may be full of it or the owners may disagree for reasons I don't know.
The HUGE positive change is that they are now communicating back. That is a
pure delight because the silence was letting us all imagine the worst.
Scott
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | bb138026 | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 16:30 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 77 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, albumman writes:
| | That's very close to what I hope happens, but i'm not posting my "vote"
because
#1 my desire is obvious and
#2 it is not really up for a vote.
|
These polls are one of the very few ways the community has to make its voice
heard by the owners. A forum post might be astonishingly brillant, but it's
also very easy to miss it (it would help if we could +1 on posts).
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | albumman | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 16:56 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 68 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Maloeran writes:
| | In Suggestions, albumman writes:
| | That's very close to what I hope happens, but i'm not posting my "vote"
because
#1 my desire is obvious and
#2 it is not really up for a vote.
|
These polls are one of the very few ways the community has to make its voice
heard by the owners. A forum post might be astonishingly brillant, but it's
also very easy to miss it (it would help if we could +1 on posts).
|
First of all thanks! And I understand its a way of saying what we want, but
the truth is that it has to make business sense for the owner or it won't
happen no matter how much we want it.
For instance, I do think the open source model you pointed to would be best.
But at first glance the owner would probably think "that's crazy...i'd
have no control". We have to point out that the attribution aspect would mean
that every transaction (even on competitors sites) would include pointers and
free advertising for bricklink on them if they followed this model. You couldn't
*buy* such good advertising for any price!
But then the owner would look to the second clause, where it says somebody could
spin off their own version of the catalog...and again the owner would think "that's
crazy...i'd lose control instantly".
We'd need to convince the owner that nobody *wants* multiple catalogs...it
makes everything harder including commerce. BrickOwl is considering making a
new open catalog if BL continues to take the community catalog private, but that's
a huge pain for them and they are only doing it because they are being forced
to. I know they'd gladly continue using the BL community catalog if they
could.
And if brickOwl does go forward with that plan, consider that the volunteer pool
that contributes all that time and energy is now going to be split by some percentage
between the two sites. Everybody loses in that scenario.
Ok, this is already too long and my computer needs to reboot in three minutes,
but there is a path all of through this. We aren't going to force the new
owner by threat or protest...we need to show them that what we want is in
his own best interest too. Once they see that, they'll act no matter how
many people liked it
Scott
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | DagsBricks | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 17:12 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 92 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, albumman writes:
| | BrickOwl is considering making a
new open catalog if BL continues to take the community catalog private, but that's
a huge pain for them and they are only doing it because they are being forced
to. I know they'd gladly continue using the BL community catalog if they
could.
|
Already happening. The BL tags, names, and other data has been stripped and
many volunteers are hunched over their laptops rebuilding the catalog as we speak
with updated more concise terms as needed. Every DAY that BL fails to implement
a new site pushes it that much further from being relevant. Sad to say.
Brian
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | BLUSER_22951 | | Posted: | Sep 30, 2013 21:29 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 85 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
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| This is a much bigger issue than Brickowl or Ebay or Amazon competing, or when
BL 2.0 is done. BL is being pretty short sited here. An open catalog is going
to happen and will succeed eventually, it is only a matter if time. Duh, that
is why BL succeeded! The BL folks are making a grave error in this regard. They
have the catalog and it will decay and be replaced if a change isn't made.
Here is why.
The Bricklink catalog started out as an open catalog for all to use freely. Bricklink's
business was a open storefront. That was the founders intention and why BL is
successful. Folks feel proud of their contributions, and it causes them to make
better corrections and improve it. They feel like they built the site. The pictures
can stay on bricklink and the non-exclusive clause on that makes sense, but its
not good to claim you own the part numbers and other stuff that lets you call
a X an X. Try describing a X without using the letter X. Seriously, fast forward
ten years from now - it really doesn't matter how great the new BL 2.0 site
is feature wise and visually if the catalog is not open and free to all who built
it past and future. Will the BL community feel proud of the catalog at that
time? I doubt it. The new TOS are really confusing on this point, but I believe
it means that it is now impossible to refer to a particular lego piece on bricklink
specifically, so that it will match up with something on BL, unless you are only
using BL, or a tool or site they decide to approve. That is the crux of the problem.
No one except paid employees will put put any extra effort on building something
that helps the catalog or BL, and no one will put their heart into improving
the catalog if they feel it isn't owned by the collective community as a
whole. It is actually more expensive not to make it open in the end for BL. Slowly
it will wither, not this year or next, but eventually. Building the catalog is
an emotional endeavor. I sincerely hope they reflect on this and change their
mind to preserve and continue the community's good work and faith in this
great effort. It needs to happen now before a replacement catalog takes the imagination
and mindshare over. A replacement catalog will work just fine and everyone will
happily to use it as the new standard elsewhere. It is not rocket science but
passion. I for one don't have a big store and was therefore was not at the
roundtable to speak up, but have contributed some small stuff to the catalog,
and bought stuff here since the early 2000s, and this all saddens me. I asked
for my contributions to be removed by the way today, not because I don't
want them there, but because it is the only voice I have to help the change their
mind. Please focus on the store business and site features and make the catalog
open. Share it now as an irrevocable open standard please.
For folks that aren't happy with the store, well I am, and I trust the new
one will be great. Why not share some screenshots and ask for input on that as
well if you fear folks are leaving because BL 2.0 isn't ready. That is not
the issue here - the catalog became the issue now.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | GPB | | Posted: | Sep 30, 2013 22:18 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 101 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, bradyhoak writes:
| | the catalog became the issue now.
|
I'm not bothered that the new ownership want to privatize the catalog. Honestly,
for the sake of consistency and control, it's necessary.
HOWEVER, what I am extremely bothered by; is that the new ownership seems
to want volunteers to still be the lifeblood of those contributions. That in
itself is just a huge punch (not slap) in the face, and then quite a few kicks
while you are on the ground.
I'm fine with you privatizing the catalog, but to come back after that and
ask people to keep contributing is a bit...rich.
If the catalog is to be private, Bricklink itself should bear the sole responsibility
of maintaining and curating their private catalog. To ask others to do volunteer
work for you, when you will be profiting from said work is just atrocious, and
quite frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself Mr. Kim.
I've said it quite a few times. Now that the site has billionaire ownership,
I'm expecting a lot. I have heard from others about the passion, the ideas,
the changes you have in store for the site. I'm not sure why you need the
public's input to execute your vision if you truly have one. The fact that
you are out soliciting advice kind of speaks against everything that you are
saying. Euro Seller's Day Anyone? A lot of words, but there have been no
actions. Words without actions...usually a great indicator of what the future
holds.
When I first heard of the sale, I was hopeful for the future of the site. It
looks like I will need to adjust my expectations down near the bottom, because
that is about where we are right now. The site is still the same as it was before
the sale, just now there is different ownership incapable of delivering what
people have been asking for, and at this point, we've been asking for years.
I'd surely like to see Bricklink succeed, and maybe even come back, but with
the current lack of direction it looks bleak.
Cheers,
Greg
PBD
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | BRICKS_R_KIDS | | Posted: | Sep 30, 2013 22:23 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 107 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, PBD writes:
| | In Suggestions, bradyhoak writes:
| | the catalog became the issue now.
|
I'm not bothered that the new ownership want to privatize the catalog. Honestly,
for the sake of consistency and control, it's necessary.
HOWEVER, what I am extremely bothered by; is that the new ownership seems
to want volunteers to still be the lifeblood of those contributions. That in
itself is just a huge punch (not slap) in the face, and then quite a few kicks
while you are on the ground.
I'm fine with you privatizing the catalog, but to come back after that and
ask people to keep contributing is a bit...rich.
If the catalog is to be private, Bricklink itself should bear the sole responsibility
of maintaining and curating their private catalog. To ask others to do volunteer
work for you, when you will be profiting from said work is just atrocious, and
quite frankly, you should be ashamed of yourself Mr. Kim.
I've said it quite a few times. Now that the site has billionaire ownership,
I'm expecting a lot. I have heard from others about the passion, the ideas,
the changes you have in store for the site. I'm not sure why you need the
public's input to execute your vision if you truly have one. The fact that
you are out soliciting advice kind of speaks against everything that you are
saying. Euro Seller's Day Anyone? A lot of words, but there have been no
actions. Words without actions...usually a great indicator of what the future
holds.
When I first heard of the sale, I was hopeful for the future of the site. It
looks like I will need to adjust my expectations down near the bottom, because
that is about where we are right now. The site is still the same as it was before
the sale, just now there is different ownership incapable of delivering what
people have been asking for, and at this point, we've been asking for years.
I'd surely like to see Bricklink succeed, and maybe even come back, but with
the current lack of direction it looks bleak.
Cheers,
Greg
PBD
|
Greg, I just posted the same exact thing.... Are they going to pay people to
keep the catalog up to date?
It makes sence. They could break the sets down and carefully inventory sets with
a professional staff.
Anyway, I agree with everything said above. I'm worried about the future
go BL.
Bill
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | viejos | | Posted: | Sep 30, 2013 23:14 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 117 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, bradyhoak writes:
| | For folks that aren't happy with the store, well I am, and I trust the new
one will be great. Why not share some screenshots and ask for input on that as
well if you fear folks are leaving because BL 2.0 isn't ready. That is not
the issue here -
|
the catalog became the issue now.
And it's really too bad that it has. Whatever BL's intentions were when
they sent the C&D letter to Brick Owl, things could not have turned out worse.
I for sure thought I would see a drop in the number of open stores and items
for sale on Brick Owl when the syncing feature was disabled on Saturday. But
to the contrary, the items for sale are up, and the site has gained another 50
stores, some of them big. And slowly but surely those feedback numbers are starting
to rise. Someone even suggested getting rid of the "feedback boost".
So much for stopping all that profiteering off of all of BL's hard work!
BL forced the choice, and so a lot of folks chose.
And then there is the situation with Brick Owl's crippled catalog. The negative
PR on the intellectual property issue has fueled a grassroots effort to rebuild
their catalog, and phenomenal progress has been made. Makes me wonder if StormChaser
has joined the Brick Owl ranks.
And they are doing some really smart things, like making an app to quickly upload
pics of new items from a smart phone. And creation of the BOID. It replaced thousands
of BL "proprietary" Item Numbers overnight and is now being synced with two other
sites.
Maybe BL will now reconsider their position on catalog sharing. They have reconsidered
where they locate their server, so maybe there is still a chance for this.
Russell
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | paulvdb | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 09:08 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 80 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, viejos writes:
| | In Suggestions, bradyhoak writes:
| | For folks that aren't happy with the store, well I am, and I trust the new
one will be great. Why not share some screenshots and ask for input on that as
well if you fear folks are leaving because BL 2.0 isn't ready. That is not
the issue here -
|
the catalog became the issue now.
And it's really too bad that it has. Whatever BL's intentions were when
they sent the C&D letter to Brick Owl, things could not have turned out worse.
I for sure thought I would see a drop in the number of open stores and items
for sale on Brick Owl when the syncing feature was disabled on Saturday. But
to the contrary, the items for sale are up, and the site has gained another 50
stores, some of them big. And slowly but surely those feedback numbers are starting
to rise. Someone even suggested getting rid of the "feedback boost".
So much for stopping all that profiteering off of all of BL's hard work!
BL forced the choice, and so a lot of folks chose.
And then there is the situation with Brick Owl's crippled catalog. The negative
PR on the intellectual property issue has fueled a grassroots effort to rebuild
their catalog, and phenomenal progress has been made. Makes me wonder if StormChaser
has joined the Brick Owl ranks.
And they are doing some really smart things, like making an app to quickly upload
pics of new items from a smart phone. And creation of the BOID. It replaced thousands
of BL "proprietary" Item Numbers overnight and is now being synced with two other
sites.
Maybe BL will now reconsider their position on catalog sharing. They have reconsidered
where they locate their server, so maybe there is still a chance for this.
Russell
|
The creation of BOID and its use in other catalogs could end up being bad for
Bricklink. If people search for part numbers by BOID they won't find Bricklink,
but they will find Brickowl and buy there. If the bb and pb part numbers are
only allowed to be used on Bricklink our stores will only be found by people
who are already on Bricklink and new buyers won't find us.
If other sites were also allowed to use these part numbers, buyers would see
those part numbers in whatever catalog they used to find their parts and find
Bricklink when searching for a place where they can buy those parts. They would
also find Brickowl, and possibly other sites selling Lego. But that's still
better than buyers not finding Bricklink at all. And as long as Bricklink has
the biggest and best stores, most of these potential buyers will still end up
buying here.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StormChaser | | Posted: | Dec 5, 2015 22:39 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, viejos writes:
| | And then there is the situation with Brick Owl's crippled catalog. The negative
PR on the intellectual property issue has fueled a grassroots effort to rebuild
their catalog, and phenomenal progress has been made. Makes me wonder if StormChaser
has joined the Brick Owl ranks.
|
Just read this thread for the first time. No, I never joined Brick Owl. If
BrickLink is still working on ironing out numerous kinks in its catalog after
fifteen years, then I hold little hope that another for-profit site trying to
meld the unholy combination of money and knowledge will have greater success.
I believe that a truly worthwhile LEGO research site/reference catalog would
be significantly separated from the demands of commerce and be freely open to
anyone wishing to use it. In the absence of such a catalog, I remain loyal to
the world's most comprehensive existing LEGO reference catalog, which is
BrickLink.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb138026 | | Posted: | Dec 5, 2015 23:02 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
| | In Suggestions, viejos writes:
| | And then there is the situation with Brick Owl's crippled catalog. The negative
PR on the intellectual property issue has fueled a grassroots effort to rebuild
their catalog, and phenomenal progress has been made. Makes me wonder if StormChaser
has joined the Brick Owl ranks.
|
I believe that a truly worthwhile LEGO research site/reference catalog would
be significantly separated from the demands of commerce and be freely open to
anyone wishing to use it. In the absence of such a catalog, I remain loyal to
the world's most comprehensive existing LEGO reference catalog, which is
BrickLink.
|
Many things have changed since these posts were made 27 months ago.
BrickLink's catalog is still a lot more complete regarding old sets and parts,
for sure. It would make a great master catalog, except that it's terms of
use actually prohibit its use by others.
On the other hand, BrickOwl's catalog is more complete regarding the dimensions
of all recent parts, since it's essential for the automated shipping calculator.
And it's available to all under an Open Database License.
Would it be better if an open catalog would be fully independent from an actual
marketplace? Perhaps... but what matters most is that a master catalog must be
available for everyone without any restriction on its uses.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StormChaser | | Posted: | Dec 5, 2015 23:22 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Stragus writes:
| | what matters most is that a master catalog must be
available for everyone without any restriction on its uses.
|
I would say that's incredibly important, but before we can even get to that
point we must discuss the fact that both BL and BO catalogs are owned by for-profit
companies. Both companies have the power to completely erase every bit of work
done or sell to another company which could erase or radically alter the work
done by volunteers.
Would they? I don't know, but before a catalog can have any real value it
must be divorced from this kind of power. That's why I believe a good reference
catalog must be non-profit and community-owned.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb138026 | | Posted: | Dec 5, 2015 23:41 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, StormChaser writes:
| | I would say that's incredibly important, but before we can even get to that
point we must discuss the fact that both BL and BO catalogs are owned by for-profit
companies. Both companies have the power to completely erase every bit of work
done or sell to another company which could erase or radically alter the work
done by volunteers.
|
Well, you can't erase data released under an Open Database License (and many
of us have the whole BrickOwl database on disk). Technically, it is true that
the copyright owner could change the license at any moment. But if that were
to happen, past releases would still be available under the Open Database License,
for anyone to use and improve.
| | Would they? I don't know, but before a catalog can have any real value it
must be divorced from this kind of power. That's why I believe a good reference
catalog must be non-profit and community-owned.
|
The BrickOwl catalog's license allows anyone to make a copy, declare it non-profit
and community-owned. No one has the power to prevent that, even if they were
to change the license.
In fact, if I'm not mistaken, BrickLink didn't have a legal case to prevent
others from using a snapshot from its database *before* they changed the Terms
of Use. No one was interested to go to court to find out, though.
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | StormChaser | | Posted: | Dec 5, 2015 23:49 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 50 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Stragus writes:
| | The BrickOwl catalog's license allows anyone to make a copy, declare it non-profit
and community-owned. No one has the power to prevent that, even if they were
to change the license.
|
That's seriously awesome. I will look into this more and take a closer look
at Brick Owl. I've felt uncomfortable for quite some time with the effort
I've put into the BrickLink catalog because I know how easily all the work
I've done could vanish.
Thank you very much for sharing.
|
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| | | | | Author: | dearlydeparted | | Posted: | Sep 26, 2013 16:02 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
An absolute Yes!
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| | | | | Author: | amosz42 | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 09:52 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 87 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| BrickLink started out as an open website by brick lovers for brick lovers. While
I love BrickLink, I really hope it doesn't go the way of the rest of the
web towards a profit-based impersonal entity filled with advertisements and legal
restrictions.
Does anything know anything about this owl site? Is their db open source? Are
they listening to the feedback of their community? Is it running for profit,
and who owns it? Ever since BL started crashing, I'd been thinking about
coding my own .NET brick site, but it sounds like we already have alternatives?
Thanks!
In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
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| | | | | | | Author: | amosz42 | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 10:15 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 70 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Also, I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more, typing numbers into difficult to
use forms on BrickLink to maintain my store inventory, on the assumption that
at any time I could export it via XML and do whatever I wanted with it. If they
think they can suddenly "disallow" that... I don't even know what to think.
Who in their right mind would run a business on a hosted site under terms that
you are not legally allowed to extract your data if your hosting provider suddenly
went under or was no longer a viable option for you?
Unless I am misreading "we do not want anybody to upload these files to other
similar websites"
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | BrickLink started out as an open website by brick lovers for brick lovers. While
I love BrickLink, I really hope it doesn't go the way of the rest of the
web towards a profit-based impersonal entity filled with advertisements and legal
restrictions.
Does anything know anything about this owl site? Is their db open source? Are
they listening to the feedback of their community? Is it running for profit,
and who owns it? Ever since BL started crashing, I'd been thinking about
coding my own .NET brick site, but it sounds like we already have alternatives?
Thanks!
In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 10:27 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 78 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | Also, I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more, typing numbers into difficult to
use forms on BrickLink to maintain my store inventory, on the assumption that
at any time I could export it via XML and do whatever I wanted with it. If they
think they can suddenly "disallow" that... I don't even know what to think.
Who in their right mind would run a business on a hosted site under terms that
you are not legally allowed to extract your data if your hosting provider suddenly
went under or was no longer a viable option for you?
Unless I am misreading "we do not want anybody to upload these files to other
similar websites"
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | BrickLink started out as an open website by brick lovers for brick lovers. While
I love BrickLink, I really hope it doesn't go the way of the rest of the
web towards a profit-based impersonal entity filled with advertisements and legal
restrictions.
Does anything know anything about this owl site? Is their db open source? Are
they listening to the feedback of their community? Is it running for profit,
and who owns it? Ever since BL started crashing, I'd been thinking about
coding my own .NET brick site, but it sounds like we already have alternatives?
Thanks!
In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
|
|
You are allowed to back them up. You are just not allowed to upload your stock
levels to any other site via the BL file you have downloaded. So if you get an
order at BL, you have to manually adjust the other store, or vice versa. Or
you just split inventory between sites, or just give up selling on one of them.
|
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | albumman | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 10:31 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I wouldn't worry about it much. You can already get your inventory data
via brickstore easily enough. And while the new rules say that BLL doesn't
want you using "their" catalog numbers with anybody else, there will be a concordance
soon enough so you can convert the obsolete/limited BL numbers in your data into
whatever the rest of the hobby will be using going forward. So rather than waste
energy arguing that the numbers aren't "theirs" in the first place, there
will be a way onward that doesn't involve tedious legal babble by all us
non-lawyers.
And no, this makes absolutely no sense for BL, its customers, or the hobby.
Scott
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | Also, I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more, typing numbers into difficult to
use forms on BrickLink to maintain my store inventory, on the assumption that
at any time I could export it via XML and do whatever I wanted with it. If they
think they can suddenly "disallow" that... I don't even know what to think.
Who in their right mind would run a business on a hosted site under terms that
you are not legally allowed to extract your data if your hosting provider suddenly
went under or was no longer a viable option for you?
Unless I am misreading "we do not want anybody to upload these files to other
similar websites"
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | BrickLink started out as an open website by brick lovers for brick lovers. While
I love BrickLink, I really hope it doesn't go the way of the rest of the
web towards a profit-based impersonal entity filled with advertisements and legal
restrictions.
Does anything know anything about this owl site? Is their db open source? Are
they listening to the feedback of their community? Is it running for profit,
and who owns it? Ever since BL started crashing, I'd been thinking about
coding my own .NET brick site, but it sounds like we already have alternatives?
Thanks!
In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | amosz42 | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 10:33 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 88 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Well I tried using BO and their UI is even more confusing than BL (is that possible?)
so I'm going to try to hold out for BL 2.0 or continue to work on my own
site. I hope this suggestion is implemented, though.
In Suggestions, albumman writes:
| | I wouldn't worry about it much. You can already get your inventory data
via brickstore easily enough. And while the new rules say that BLL doesn't
want you using "their" catalog numbers with anybody else, there will be a concordance
soon enough so you can convert the obsolete/limited BL numbers in your data into
whatever the rest of the hobby will be using going forward. So rather than waste
energy arguing that the numbers aren't "theirs" in the first place, there
will be a way onward that doesn't involve tedious legal babble by all us
non-lawyers.
And no, this makes absolutely no sense for BL, its customers, or the hobby.
Scott
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | Also, I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more, typing numbers into difficult to
use forms on BrickLink to maintain my store inventory, on the assumption that
at any time I could export it via XML and do whatever I wanted with it. If they
think they can suddenly "disallow" that... I don't even know what to think.
Who in their right mind would run a business on a hosted site under terms that
you are not legally allowed to extract your data if your hosting provider suddenly
went under or was no longer a viable option for you?
Unless I am misreading "we do not want anybody to upload these files to other
similar websites"
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | BrickLink started out as an open website by brick lovers for brick lovers. While
I love BrickLink, I really hope it doesn't go the way of the rest of the
web towards a profit-based impersonal entity filled with advertisements and legal
restrictions.
Does anything know anything about this owl site? Is their db open source? Are
they listening to the feedback of their community? Is it running for profit,
and who owns it? Ever since BL started crashing, I'd been thinking about
coding my own .NET brick site, but it sounds like we already have alternatives?
Thanks!
In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
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| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | albumman | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 11:21 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 82 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| BO is probably where BL was a decade ago...confusion, but also a lot of energy
and willingness to try things out. Very exciting, but yes there are inconsistencies
and some pain as things change under you so it isn't as stable as BL was.
BL2 promises a lot too, but it has a lot to prove as well and it is not here
yet.
I'm watching both and hope the best for both...plus I'm one of those
guys who things good competition brings out the best in all parties. We shall
see...
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | Well I tried using BO and their UI is even more confusing than BL (is that possible?)
so I'm going to try to hold out for BL 2.0 or continue to work on my own
site. I hope this suggestion is implemented, though.
In Suggestions, albumman writes:
| | I wouldn't worry about it much. You can already get your inventory data
via brickstore easily enough. And while the new rules say that BLL doesn't
want you using "their" catalog numbers with anybody else, there will be a concordance
soon enough so you can convert the obsolete/limited BL numbers in your data into
whatever the rest of the hobby will be using going forward. So rather than waste
energy arguing that the numbers aren't "theirs" in the first place, there
will be a way onward that doesn't involve tedious legal babble by all us
non-lawyers.
And no, this makes absolutely no sense for BL, its customers, or the hobby.
Scott
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | Also, I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more, typing numbers into difficult to
use forms on BrickLink to maintain my store inventory, on the assumption that
at any time I could export it via XML and do whatever I wanted with it. If they
think they can suddenly "disallow" that... I don't even know what to think.
Who in their right mind would run a business on a hosted site under terms that
you are not legally allowed to extract your data if your hosting provider suddenly
went under or was no longer a viable option for you?
Unless I am misreading "we do not want anybody to upload these files to other
similar websites"
In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | BrickLink started out as an open website by brick lovers for brick lovers. While
I love BrickLink, I really hope it doesn't go the way of the rest of the
web towards a profit-based impersonal entity filled with advertisements and legal
restrictions.
Does anything know anything about this owl site? Is their db open source? Are
they listening to the feedback of their community? Is it running for profit,
and who owns it? Ever since BL started crashing, I'd been thinking about
coding my own .NET brick site, but it sounds like we already have alternatives?
Thanks!
In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
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| | | | | | | | | Author: | BLUSER_369442 | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 10:33 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 64 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | Also, I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more, typing numbers into difficult to
use forms on BrickLink to maintain my store inventory, on the assumption that
at any time I could export it via XML and do whatever I wanted with it. If they
think they can suddenly "disallow" that... I don't even know what to think.
Who in their right mind would run a business on a hosted site under terms that
you are not legally allowed to extract your data if your hosting provider suddenly
went under or was no longer a viable option for you?
Unless I am misreading "we do not want anybody to upload these files to other
similar websites"
|
IANAL, but I think there's a loophole on that one. If you look at the TOS,
Section 8, which is what limits your ability to use the downloaded XML to sync
with other sites, is a condition of using the site, not an IP license, and Section
9 gives the consequences of breaking the agreement -- and currently the worst
they threaten to do is delete your account. If BL "goes under" or you no longer
want to sell here, what do you care if they delete your account? Unless you think
you might want to come back someday, or there's some law I don't know
about that would let them do worse than just deleting your account, breaking
the TOS in the process of moving shop shouldn't be an issue. I'm not
qualified to give reliable legal advice, but that's the way I read it.
|
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| | | | | | | Author: | DagsBricks | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 11:09 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, amosz42 writes:
| | Does anything know anything about this owl site? Is their db open source? Are
they listening to the feedback of their community? Is it running for profit,
and who owns it? Ever since BL started crashing, I'd been thinking about
coding my own .NET brick site, but it sounds like we already have alternatives?
Thanks!
|
Yes, sort of and will be available soon, yes and acting quickly, same profit
as here, a very dedicated (former?) "user" of BL.
Brian
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | BLUSER_369442 | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 12:31 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 87 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
I'll get behind this suggestion as well, though somehow I don't think
anything posted to the forum really makes it up to the owners unless Eric forwards
it.
Incidentally, last Sunday I did a little research into copyright law myself.
I decided not to post my results at the time since the conversation had mostly
died down at that point, but now that the subject's been brought up again...
I couldn't find any information on Hong Kong copyright law, but did look
into US, UK, and EU law. As far as I can tell, unless HK is way different from
the rest of the world, the stuff BLL is claiming to have copyright on is not
actually copyrightable.
According to the letter from BLL:
| | Bricklink’s intellectual property
comprises amongst others its system of naming, numbering and classifying LEGO
parts, set and minifigures.
|
http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759129
From the US government's copyright FAQ (emphasis mine):
"Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of
operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed."
"Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short
phrases."
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html
EU law seems to be similar to US in this regard:
"Copyright does not exist in names, colour, inventions or ideas, but may exist
in a work expressing or composed from these concepts."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page165.html
"There is no copyright in a name, title, slogan or phrase unless it is a literary
work in its own right."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page166.html
"A fact cannot be protected, although the way it is presented can be protected.
For example, the train times are fact (and so anyone is free to write up a list
of the train times and publish them) but the typographic layout of the official
timetable is protected by copyright."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page167.html
And UK as well:
"Copyright does not protect ideas, names or titles, or functional or industrial
articles."
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-applies-faq/c-applies-faq-whatis.htm
In the US, it has been ruled that "The copyright owner of a software program
that gathers public domain information cannot seek to extend database protection
over the information that users gather with the software."
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/faqs/law-changes/#limits_on_database_protection
I'm not quite sure whether that ruling has any bearing on this situation,
but the situation described in the link sounds pretty similar. Of course it only
applies in the US, but might still be worth being aware of.
The UK and EU have something called "database rights", which do not exist in
the US.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-otherprotect/c-databaseright.htm
As far as I can tell, this is the only right BLL might be able to claim, if Hong
Kong has such legislation. However, I can find no reference to HK having DB rights.
Theoretically, the algorithm for generating numbers for printed/variant items
might be patentable, but I don't think any such patent exists. That wouldn't
protect the numbers output by the algorithm, however. Those would have to be
copyrighted. I couldn't find anything dealing specifically with the copyrightability
of organizational identification labels, but logically they're just a type
of name. Law isn't always logical, though.
So as far as I can tell, what BLL is claiming as their intellectual property
doesn't seem to be copyrightable at all, unless catalog IDs are treated differently
from other kinds of names or Hong Kong's laws differ greatly from other
parts of the world. It would have been nice if BrickOwl had fought the issue
instead of caving in, as I'd really like to know what actual lawyers and
judges would make of BLL's copyright claims.
As I pointed out in my reply to amosz42, TOS sec. 8 is a condition of the using
the site, not a copyright license, and therefore restricts only people who have
agreed to the TOS -- that is, only to people who have registered BL accounts
(note that the preamble states that you agree to the TOS "by registering as a
member" not merely by looking at the site). Consequently, it seems that its sole
purpose is to prevent BL sellers from also selling elsewhere, since a non-member
can harvest whatever data they want that isn't protected by copyright, db
rights, or trademark rights -- and as far as I can determine, that's
everything in the catalog except the pictures (which are owned by the people
who took the photos, not BLL).
The other effect, though, is that even if the catalog were placed under an Open
Data license, sec. 8 could still conceivably restrict members from excersizing
the rights granted by the license. I'm not sure which would take precedence,
it probably depends on whether the license chosen specifically forbids that sort
of indirect restriction. A Free Data license written by the FSF probably would,
but a CC license might not. (I do seem to recall that someone was working on
a Free Data license specifically for databases, but I can't remember if it
was the FSF or CC.)
Sorry for the long post and sorta hijacking the thread, but I thought it was
probably important to show that there are two related but different issues here:
1. BLL telling BrickOwl to remove the cross-references was based on a copyright
claim, and the validity of that copyright claim is the first thing that needs
to be examined there. If there's nothing to copyright in the first place,
then the license really doesn't matter. BLL can threaten and harass, but
without valid copyright claim they have no grounds to pursue action against anyone
inclined and capable of fighting back.
2. TOS section 8 is a condition of our use of the site, not a direct restriction
on the use of the catalog, so that's about what we members are allowed to
do, not what other sites are allowed to do.
And of course, the real heart of the matter is that the direction BLL is taking
is self-destructive, and almost everyone -- except apparently the people
making the decisions -- can see that.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | BLUSER_308272 | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 13:14 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 90 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| The last hour I struggeld through this theme of the forum hoping I understand
all whats written.
From my heart I hope that BL will continue - continue in that way under that
idea whats first grounded. As a portal from Legolovers for Legolovers. Over years
here is a singularity created from people all over the world. All, who worked
on this catalogue here, did it not to create or generate profit. I think, the
same as its for me is also a spirit in this. If I search for a item to complete
one of my models or my husband complete one of his beloved minifigures and we
find this item in this magnificent catalogue sides - WOW!
I hope and wish this side will go on - at pool position from all Lego sides.
Every item, thats listed with his own alphanumeric combination - or with his
own number belongs to the BL-members like their property and should not given
away to other portals.
If sometimes a searching machine find one of this - its ok - as long as the link
swarm to BL.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | bb186511 | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 15:52 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 73 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Ryukage writes:
| | In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
I'll get behind this suggestion as well, though somehow I don't think
anything posted to the forum really makes it up to the owners unless Eric forwards
it.
Incidentally, last Sunday I did a little research into copyright law myself.
I decided not to post my results at the time since the conversation had mostly
died down at that point, but now that the subject's been brought up again...
I couldn't find any information on Hong Kong copyright law, but did look
into US, UK, and EU law. As far as I can tell, unless HK is way different from
the rest of the world, the stuff BLL is claiming to have copyright on is not
actually copyrightable.
According to the letter from BLL:
| | Bricklink’s intellectual property
comprises amongst others its system of naming, numbering and classifying LEGO
parts, set and minifigures.
|
http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759129
From the US government's copyright FAQ (emphasis mine):
"Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of
operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed."
"Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short
phrases."
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html
EU law seems to be similar to US in this regard:
"Copyright does not exist in names, colour, inventions or ideas, but may exist
in a work expressing or composed from these concepts."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page165.html
"There is no copyright in a name, title, slogan or phrase unless it is a literary
work in its own right."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page166.html
"A fact cannot be protected, although the way it is presented can be protected.
For example, the train times are fact (and so anyone is free to write up a list
of the train times and publish them) but the typographic layout of the official
timetable is protected by copyright."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page167.html
And UK as well:
"Copyright does not protect ideas, names or titles, or functional or industrial
articles."
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-applies-faq/c-applies-faq-whatis.htm
In the US, it has been ruled that "The copyright owner of a software program
that gathers public domain information cannot seek to extend database protection
over the information that users gather with the software."
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/faqs/law-changes/#limits_on_database_protection
I'm not quite sure whether that ruling has any bearing on this situation,
but the situation described in the link sounds pretty similar. Of course it only
applies in the US, but might still be worth being aware of.
The UK and EU have something called "database rights", which do not exist in
the US.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-otherprotect/c-databaseright.htm
As far as I can tell, this is the only right BLL might be able to claim, if Hong
Kong has such legislation. However, I can find no reference to HK having DB rights.
Theoretically, the algorithm for generating numbers for printed/variant items
might be patentable, but I don't think any such patent exists. That wouldn't
protect the numbers output by the algorithm, however. Those would have to be
copyrighted. I couldn't find anything dealing specifically with the copyrightability
of organizational identification labels, but logically they're just a type
of name. Law isn't always logical, though.
So as far as I can tell, what BLL is claiming as their intellectual property
doesn't seem to be copyrightable at all, unless catalog IDs are treated differently
from other kinds of names or Hong Kong's laws differ greatly from other
parts of the world. It would have been nice if BrickOwl had fought the issue
instead of caving in, as I'd really like to know what actual lawyers and
judges would make of BLL's copyright claims.
As I pointed out in my reply to amosz42, TOS sec. 8 is a condition of the using
the site, not a copyright license, and therefore restricts only people who have
agreed to the TOS -- that is, only to people who have registered BL accounts
(note that the preamble states that you agree to the TOS "by registering as a
member" not merely by looking at the site). Consequently, it seems that its sole
purpose is to prevent BL sellers from also selling elsewhere, since a non-member
can harvest whatever data they want that isn't protected by copyright, db
rights, or trademark rights -- and as far as I can determine, that's
everything in the catalog except the pictures (which are owned by the people
who took the photos, not BLL).
The other effect, though, is that even if the catalog were placed under an Open
Data license, sec. 8 could still conceivably restrict members from excersizing
the rights granted by the license. I'm not sure which would take precedence,
it probably depends on whether the license chosen specifically forbids that sort
of indirect restriction. A Free Data license written by the FSF probably would,
but a CC license might not. (I do seem to recall that someone was working on
a Free Data license specifically for databases, but I can't remember if it
was the FSF or CC.)
Sorry for the long post and sorta hijacking the thread, but I thought it was
probably important to show that there are two related but different issues here:
1. BLL telling BrickOwl to remove the cross-references was based on a copyright
claim, and the validity of that copyright claim is the first thing that needs
to be examined there. If there's nothing to copyright in the first place,
then the license really doesn't matter. BLL can threaten and harass, but
without valid copyright claim they have no grounds to pursue action against anyone
inclined and capable of fighting back.
2. TOS section 8 is a condition of our use of the site, not a direct restriction
on the use of the catalog, so that's about what we members are allowed to
do, not what other sites are allowed to do.
And of course, the real heart of the matter is that the direction BLL is taking
is self-destructive, and almost everyone -- except apparently the people
making the decisions -- can see that.
|
Very well said. You may very well be a genius. The other thing I think will play
a very large role here is Bricklink Ltd. "officially" became legal owners of
Bricklink on July 1st 2013. Brick Owl was launched and running prior to them
taking ownership. I am no lawyer but I seriously doubt you can sue someone or
have any legal recourse for something occurring prior to you being the owner.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | DagsBricks | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 16:10 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 54 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Garys_Toys writes:
| | I am no lawyer but I seriously doubt you can sue someone or
have any legal recourse for something occurring prior to you being the owner.
|
Unless the sale included ALL the inherent legal liabilities. I'm no lawyer
either but I'm betting you could. That's why Homer Simpson was arrested
for SEC fraud as a majority shareholder of ZiffCorp, even though he was made
so after the fraud.
ref: http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/The_Ziff_Who_Came_to_Dinner
Brian
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | albumman | | Posted: | Oct 1, 2013 16:14 | | Subject: | Re: Make BL the master catalog for all to share | | Viewed: | 90 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Garys_Toys writes:
| | In Suggestions, Ryukage writes:
| | In Suggestions, JulieK writes:
| | http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759169
Sir Troy's posts are consistently thoughtful and full of common sense,
imo. For him to say the referenced link "...stated my opinion on this matter
for me much better and more
concisely than I have been able." says alot to me.
Please Bricklink, for the sake of the hobby(be it a builder, seller or a combination),
be open to sharing. As someone else posted, fix BL and you won't have to
worry about competition.
Peace,
Julie
|
I'll get behind this suggestion as well, though somehow I don't think
anything posted to the forum really makes it up to the owners unless Eric forwards
it.
Incidentally, last Sunday I did a little research into copyright law myself.
I decided not to post my results at the time since the conversation had mostly
died down at that point, but now that the subject's been brought up again...
I couldn't find any information on Hong Kong copyright law, but did look
into US, UK, and EU law. As far as I can tell, unless HK is way different from
the rest of the world, the stuff BLL is claiming to have copyright on is not
actually copyrightable.
According to the letter from BLL:
| | Bricklink’s intellectual property
comprises amongst others its system of naming, numbering and classifying LEGO
parts, set and minifigures.
|
http://www.bricklink.com/message.asp?ID=759129
From the US government's copyright FAQ (emphasis mine):
"Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of
operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed."
"Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short
phrases."
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html
EU law seems to be similar to US in this regard:
"Copyright does not exist in names, colour, inventions or ideas, but may exist
in a work expressing or composed from these concepts."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page165.html
"There is no copyright in a name, title, slogan or phrase unless it is a literary
work in its own right."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page166.html
"A fact cannot be protected, although the way it is presented can be protected.
For example, the train times are fact (and so anyone is free to write up a list
of the train times and publish them) but the typographic layout of the official
timetable is protected by copyright."
http://www.caret.cam.ac.uk/copyright/Page167.html
And UK as well:
"Copyright does not protect ideas, names or titles, or functional or industrial
articles."
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-applies-faq/c-applies-faq-whatis.htm
In the US, it has been ruled that "The copyright owner of a software program
that gathers public domain information cannot seek to extend database protection
over the information that users gather with the software."
http://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/faqs/law-changes/#limits_on_database_protection
I'm not quite sure whether that ruling has any bearing on this situation,
but the situation described in the link sounds pretty similar. Of course it only
applies in the US, but might still be worth being aware of.
The UK and EU have something called "database rights", which do not exist in
the US.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-otherprotect/c-databaseright.htm
As far as I can tell, this is the only right BLL might be able to claim, if Hong
Kong has such legislation. However, I can find no reference to HK having DB rights.
Theoretically, the algorithm for generating numbers for printed/variant items
might be patentable, but I don't think any such patent exists. That wouldn't
protect the numbers output by the algorithm, however. Those would have to be
copyrighted. I couldn't find anything dealing specifically with the copyrightability
of organizational identification labels, but logically they're just a type
of name. Law isn't always logical, though.
So as far as I can tell, what BLL is claiming as their intellectual property
doesn't seem to be copyrightable at all, unless catalog IDs are treated differently
from other kinds of names or Hong Kong's laws differ greatly from other
parts of the world. It would have been nice if BrickOwl had fought the issue
instead of caving in, as I'd really like to know what actual lawyers and
judges would make of BLL's copyright claims.
As I pointed out in my reply to amosz42, TOS sec. 8 is a condition of the using
the site, not a copyright license, and therefore restricts only people who have
agreed to the TOS -- that is, only to people who have registered BL accounts
(note that the preamble states that you agree to the TOS "by registering as a
member" not merely by looking at the site). Consequently, it seems that its sole
purpose is to prevent BL sellers from also selling elsewhere, since a non-member
can harvest whatever data they want that isn't protected by copyright, db
rights, or trademark rights -- and as far as I can determine, that's
everything in the catalog except the pictures (which are owned by the people
who took the photos, not BLL).
The other effect, though, is that even if the catalog were placed under an Open
Data license, sec. 8 could still conceivably restrict members from excersizing
the rights granted by the license. I'm not sure which would take precedence,
it probably depends on whether the license chosen specifically forbids that sort
of indirect restriction. A Free Data license written by the FSF probably would,
but a CC license might not. (I do seem to recall that someone was working on
a Free Data license specifically for databases, but I can't remember if it
was the FSF or CC.)
Sorry for the long post and sorta hijacking the thread, but I thought it was
probably important to show that there are two related but different issues here:
1. BLL telling BrickOwl to remove the cross-references was based on a copyright
claim, and the validity of that copyright claim is the first thing that needs
to be examined there. If there's nothing to copyright in the first place,
then the license really doesn't matter. BLL can threaten and harass, but
without valid copyright claim they have no grounds to pursue action against anyone
inclined and capable of fighting back.
2. TOS section 8 is a condition of our use of the site, not a direct restriction
on the use of the catalog, so that's about what we members are allowed to
do, not what other sites are allowed to do.
And of course, the real heart of the matter is that the direction BLL is taking
is self-destructive, and almost everyone -- except apparently the people
making the decisions -- can see that.
|
Very well said. You may very well be a genius. The other thing I think will play
a very large role here is Bricklink Ltd. "officially" became legal owners of
Bricklink on July 1st 2013. Brick Owl was launched and running prior to them
taking ownership. I am no lawyer but I seriously doubt you can sue someone or
have any legal recourse for something occurring prior to you being the owner.
|
It doesn't matter. Once you start throwing lawyers and law-speak into the
conversation, the fun is drained away and most people leave in fear and/or disgust.
And even if you are wrong, if you have the money to spend on lawyers, you can
still tie people in knots and make them spend their money in non-fun ways.
Fwiw the copyright stuff above is correct, and this was well established decades
ago (the stamp catalog publishers live and die by this and even they know a catalog
number is not copyright-able...they do other things that make their works protected.
)
When you have to be a lawyer (or pretend to be one) to enjoy your hobby the enjoyment
is quickly chased away. The silence today from BLL is deafening.
Scott
|
|
|
|
|
|
USA, Illinois
Canada, Quebec
Belgium, Flemish Brabant
Netherlands, Overijssel
United Kingdom, England
Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen