|
 |
| | | Author: | bb200521  | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 07:17 | | Subject: | Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 304 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | | Status: | Open | | Vote: | [Yes|No] | |
|
| After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
Not for complaining any way : I take the responsibility for not having asked
for insurance, and the order value is far less than what I save with not asking
for it; But just to note that this things could happen (and maybe getting some
statistic on that) and are not listed as a possible conclusion of the deal.
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 07:28 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 72 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
|
Uncheck the open order notifications here http://www.bricklink.com/mySettings.asp
and you'll see no notifications anymore.
Check the box "file" on your orders placed screen and it's gone. 
http://www.bricklink.com/orderPlaced.asp
| |
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
|
Why, the problem would stay open unsolved.
You're accepting the loss of the order, so change the orderstatus to "completed"
and add a note to the order and file it. http://www.bricklink.com/orderSettingsCols.asp?v=p&viewFrom=O
| | Not for complaining any way : I take the responsibility for not having asked
for insurance, and the order value is far less than what I save with not asking
for it; But just to note that this things could happen (and maybe getting some
statistic on that) and are not listed as a possible conclusion of the deal.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 07:48 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 62 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
|
Uncheck the open order notifications here http://www.bricklink.com/mySettings.asp
and you'll see no notifications anymore.
Check the box "file" on your orders placed screen and it's gone.
http://www.bricklink.com/orderPlaced.asp
| |
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
|
Why, the problem would stay open unsolved.
You're accepting the loss of the order, so change the orderstatus to "completed"
and add a note to the order and file it. http://www.bricklink.com/orderSettingsCols.asp?v=p&viewFrom=O
|
I was thinking the same as you on this except, maybe, it would be good for BL
to collect the data as "lost order" instead of "completed order".. hmmm, not
sure of the value of this though as many buyers never mark the order as completed
anyway so it would just be incomplete data, just thinking aloud!
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 08:49 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
|
Uncheck the open order notifications here http://www.bricklink.com/mySettings.asp
and you'll see no notifications anymore.
|
An idea... but this was not my aim : seeing I still having some more items coming
is nice.. 
I will study this, thanks for this idea
| |
| |
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
|
Why, the problem would stay open unsolved.
You're accepting the loss of the order, so change the orderstatus to "completed"
|
Following the order step : received when you get it, and completed when everything
is fine.... Then it's hard for me to consider completed if the goal of the order
isn't reached. Hence the suggestion to add another possible ending...
Furthermore, about feedback, in one hand I can say the seller communicated fine
(he even offer me a coupon that wasn't intended for). And in hte other hand,
I can say nothing about the quality of the items, package, completion of lots...
Then for a feedback, I feel like neither a good one, nether a neutral one would
fit. And no feedback couldn't be fair as well...
But for a lost package, a positive one could be appropriated.
No need for remembering about this order I think. Probably because I have a quit
good mnemonic way deal with...
| |
| | Not for complaining any way : I take the responsibility for not having asked
for insurance, and the order value is far less than what I save with not asking
for it; But just to note that this things could happen (and maybe getting some
statistic on that) and are not listed as a possible conclusion of the deal.
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:16 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
|
Uncheck the open order notifications here http://www.bricklink.com/mySettings.asp
and you'll see no notifications anymore.
|
An idea... but this was not my aim : seeing I still having some more items coming
is nice..
I will study this, thanks for this idea
| |
| |
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
|
Why, the problem would stay open unsolved.
You're accepting the loss of the order, so change the orderstatus to "completed"
|
Following the order step : received when you get it, and completed when everything
is fine.... Then it's hard for me to consider completed if the goal of the order
isn't reached. Hence the suggestion to add another possible ending...
|
The ending has changed from expecting to receive the items to be considered lost.
| | Furthermore, about feedback, in one hand I can say the seller communicated fine
(he even offer me a coupon that wasn't intended for). And in hte other hand,
I can say nothing about the quality of the items, package, completion of lots...
Then for a feedback, I feel like neither a good one, nether a neutral one would
fit. And no feedback couldn't be fair as well...
But for a lost package, a positive one could be appropriated.
|
You still can leave feedback for communication, service etc.
| |
No need for remembering about this order I think. Probably because I have a quit
good mnemonic way deal with...
| |
| | Not for complaining any way : I take the responsibility for not having asked
for insurance, and the order value is far less than what I save with not asking
for it; But just to note that this things could happen (and maybe getting some
statistic on that) and are not listed as a possible conclusion of the deal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 12:55 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
|
Uncheck the open order notifications here http://www.bricklink.com/mySettings.asp
and you'll see no notifications anymore.
|
An idea... but this was not my aim : seeing I still having some more items coming
is nice..
I will study this, thanks for this idea
| |
| |
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
|
Why, the problem would stay open unsolved.
You're accepting the loss of the order, so change the orderstatus to "completed"
|
Following the order step : received when you get it, and completed when everything
is fine.... Then it's hard for me to consider completed if the goal of the order
isn't reached. Hence the suggestion to add another possible ending...
|
The ending has changed from expecting to receive the items to be considered lost.
|
 not really what I meant for "ending". The goal was to be able to use the part...
| |
| | Furthermore, about feedback, in one hand I can say the seller communicated fine
(he even offer me a coupon that wasn't intended for). And in hte other hand,
I can say nothing about the quality of the items, package, completion of lots...
Then for a feedback, I feel like neither a good one, nether a neutral one would
fit. And no feedback couldn't be fair as well...
But for a lost package, a positive one could be appropriated.
|
You still can leave feedback for communication, service etc.
| |
No need for remembering about this order I think. Probably because I have a quit
good mnemonic way deal with...
| |
| | Not for complaining any way : I take the responsibility for not having asked
for insurance, and the order value is far less than what I save with not asking
for it; But just to note that this things could happen (and maybe getting some
statistic on that) and are not listed as a possible conclusion of the deal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 08:40 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Just FYI.
EU regs state that it is the sellers responsibility to get the order to you -
if it doesn't arrive the loss is theirs not yours.
Over here "proof of posting" covers the seller in the event of loss, if you are
being nice and are satisfied that the seller actually sent it to you - then you
should just mark it received or completed even tho it hasn't.
I dont see any purpose to a "lost package" status - you would likely be the only
one to use it!
In my most humble opinion - graham
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:00 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 51 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Just FYI.
EU regs state that it is the sellers responsibility to get the order to you -
if it doesn't arrive the loss is theirs not yours.
|
You may be right, for commercial legislation. But this isn't true for transaction
between individuals (in France at least). What is the rules in this case is what
2 part have agreed about. And I agreed with the term of his store. Then....
| |
Over here "proof of posting" covers the seller in the event of loss, if you are
being nice and are satisfied that the seller actually sent it to you - then you
should just mark it received or completed even tho it hasn't.
|
Already told more about this "words" definition/interpretation.
| |
I dont see any purpose to a "lost package" status - you would likely be the only
one to use it!
|
Maybe, maybe not.... In my most humble opinion ( ) that's what suggestions
are meant for, isn't it ?
| |
In my most humble opinion - graham
|
Whatever, thanks for your opinion.
Axel
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:12 | | Subject: | (Cancelled) | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | (Cancelled) |
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:27 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | | | EU regs state that it is the sellers responsibility to get the order to you -
if it doesn't arrive the loss is theirs not yours.
|
You may be right, for commercial legislation. But this isn't true for transaction
between individuals (in France at least). What is the rules in this case is what
2 part have agreed about. And I agreed with the term of his store. Then....
|
In the EU, a seller's terms do not override EU laws / regs. If parts were being
sold by a trader for profit, then they are a business not a private individual
(no matter what they call themselves), then it is a commercial transaction.
Also if you paid through PayPal and you didn't get your item, then you can claim
for a refund through them, as you directly paid them, not the trader. They will
refund you. Then they will chase the money (and of course reclaim it from the
seller).
|
The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 10:37 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 49 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brickwilbo | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 12:10 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 57 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
Sellers probably make a "note on member" to invoice you the more expensive registered
shipping.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | RobErNat | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 12:29 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
Sellers probably make a "note on member" to invoice you the more expensive registered
shipping.
|
Note made...
Paypal is NOT an insurance, it's a payment method...
If the buyer whishes insurance, he can ask his seller to add it to invoice...
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 15:33 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 65 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| It doesn't matter what you think and whether the insurance is not placed agreement
made on bricklink stands or not. What matters is PayPal's user agreement. That
is how the payment was made.
If a seller cannot prove they sent something to the buyer and the buyer complains
they have not received anything, then the buyer will win. Sellers have to accept
that - it is part of the agreement they sign up to when using PayPal. It is up
to sellers to make sure they are covered, not for the buyer to have to request
insurance. If you cannot afford to lose an order, then you have to make sure
that you have insured it. Whether at your expense or the buyer's, if they complain
you will lose the PayPal claim.
The people that have messaged me to tell me I am blocked from buying from you
because I have said this, that is fine.
Just don't complain when someone else stings you. You cannot possibly know beforehand
who is going to say they didn't get their parcel - and you cannot possibly know
if they are telling the truth if you do not have some form of tracking. It is
your responsibility to make sure they get the parcel and that you can prove they
received it. That is the joy of PayPal.
To those saying it is not insurance, it is. You only need to read the Buyer Protection
page to find that out:
To get PayPal Buyer Protection, all you need to do is pay with PayPal. It's as
simple as that. So if you pay for something and it never arrives or doesn't match
the seller's description - for example if you receive the wrong item or it gets
damaged in the post - then we'll give you your money back, as long as the eligibility
requirements are met.
Note what they say ... if it doesn't arrive, we'll give you your money back.
And to those buyers in the UK, if it is over £100, remember to use a credit card
to pay, since you get Section 75 protection too - where the card issuer is also
liable.
In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
Sellers probably make a "note on member" to invoice you the more expensive registered
shipping.
|
Note made...
Paypal is NOT an insurance, it's a payment method...
If the buyer whishes insurance, he can ask his seller to add it to invoice...
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Brettj666 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 16:10 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 72 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| What if the seller CAN prove that they've sent something and it simply didn't
arrive.
because
1) it's lost in the mail
2) your post man is a thief
3) your neighbour is a thief
4) you are a thief and claim it didn't arrive.
on those 4 points, AFTER the seller has PROVED to you that they sent it, which
#'s do you still file a paypal claim?
In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | It doesn't matter what you think and whether the insurance is not placed agreement
made on bricklink stands or not. What matters is PayPal's user agreement. That
is how the payment was made.
If a seller cannot prove they sent something to the buyer and the buyer complains
they have not received anything, then the buyer will win. Sellers have to accept
that - it is part of the agreement they sign up to when using PayPal. It is up
to sellers to make sure they are covered, not for the buyer to have to request
insurance. If you cannot afford to lose an order, then you have to make sure
that you have insured it. Whether at your expense or the buyer's, if they complain
you will lose the PayPal claim.
The people that have messaged me to tell me I am blocked from buying from you
because I have said this, that is fine.
Just don't complain when someone else stings you. You cannot possibly know beforehand
who is going to say they didn't get their parcel - and you cannot possibly know
if they are telling the truth if you do not have some form of tracking. It is
your responsibility to make sure they get the parcel and that you can prove they
received it. That is the joy of PayPal.
To those saying it is not insurance, it is. You only need to read the Buyer Protection
page to find that out:
To get PayPal Buyer Protection, all you need to do is pay with PayPal. It's as
simple as that. So if you pay for something and it never arrives or doesn't match
the seller's description - for example if you receive the wrong item or it gets
damaged in the post - then we'll give you your money back, as long as the eligibility
requirements are met.
Note what they say ... if it doesn't arrive, we'll give you your money back.
And to those buyers in the UK, if it is over £100, remember to use a credit card
to pay, since you get Section 75 protection too - where the card issuer is also
liable.
In Suggestions, RobErNat writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brickwilbo writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
Sellers probably make a "note on member" to invoice you the more expensive registered
shipping.
|
Note made...
Paypal is NOT an insurance, it's a payment method...
If the buyer whishes insurance, he can ask his seller to add it to invoice...
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Timothy_Smith | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 16:25 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brettj666 writes:
| | What if the seller CAN prove that they've sent something and it simply didn't
arrive.
|
PayPal terms are pretty specific as to what they accept as proof.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Grego | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 16:34 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brettj666 writes:
| | What if the seller CAN prove that they've sent something and it simply didn't
arrive.
because
1) it's lost in the mail
2) your post man is a thief
3) your neighbour is a thief
4) you are a thief and claim it didn't arrive.
on those 4 points, AFTER the seller has PROVED to you that they sent it, which
#'s do you still file a paypal claim?
|
I'm curious ... how does the seller prove that they did send the buyer what they
ordered?
1. Scan of the postage receipt
... great! Does it prove it was sent ? No, just that something was paid for.
... Does it prove that what was ordered was sent? ... No, just that something
was paid for.
2. Online proof of delivery.
... great! Does it prove that the buyer got it? No, only that the post office
delivered or lost it somewhere.
3. Online signature.
... great! Does it prove the buyer got it? No, only that the post office delivered
it somewhere and they signed for it. Doesn't prove the buyer got it.
...great! Even with online proof of delivery and signature does it guarentee
that the seller didn't ship a concrete block instead of what the buyer ordred?
Nope.
Online buying and selling requires that both parties exhibit some level of trust
in the other party, otherwise ... the possibilites of scams on both sides is
astronomical.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 05:39 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Brettj666 writes:
| | What if the seller CAN prove that they've sent something and it simply didn't
arrive.
because
1) it's lost in the mail
2) your post man is a thief
3) your neighbour is a thief
4) you are a thief and claim it didn't arrive.
on those 4 points, AFTER the seller has PROVED to you that they sent it, which
#'s do you still file a paypal claim?
|
When using PayPal, proof of postage is not enough. You need proof of delivery.
They are different.
Which is why a seller needs to ensure they send items using a method where they
can prove delivery, otherwise they are open to chargebacks through paypal, whether
genuinely not received or otherwise.
Points 1-3, the seller is responsible for the package getting to the recipient.
So they are liable for losses.
Point 4, the buyer is morally wrong, but the seller is still responsible for
proving the buyer got the package, so is still liable.
You might not like it, but that is what you agree to when using PayPal.
Of course, you might prefer to make your prices as low as possible and not insist
on insurance / delivery tracking. That might get you more orders. However, if
a buyer says they didn't receive something (whether true or not) under PayPal's
user agreement, you are liable as the seller for proving they did.
Of course, you can leave negative feedback for it if you think they are conning
you. But you are still going to be out of pocket.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 12:45 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 28 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Even paypal have different rules in different country and depending of the seller
legal statut...
What I agree within paypal term is :
- for natioanal shipping, under 200€, only proof of shipping. And over, "legal"
proof of delivery.
- for internationnal shipping : "legal" proof of delivery whatever the destination.
The joke is: depending of the country, the "legal proof" don't seem to have the
same definition (some are accepting online tack, other only written receipt)
...
And the other detail is that this rule are not compulsory... only if I want to
be "protected" as seller..
Then paypal can have impact on shipment cost.... would the price guide include
that as well...to be fair ?
oups, that was another topic...
In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | In Suggestions, Brettj666 writes:
| | What if the seller CAN prove that they've sent something and it simply didn't
arrive.
because
1) it's lost in the mail
2) your post man is a thief
3) your neighbour is a thief
4) you are a thief and claim it didn't arrive.
on those 4 points, AFTER the seller has PROVED to you that they sent it, which
#'s do you still file a paypal claim?
|
When using PayPal, proof of postage is not enough. You need proof of delivery.
They are different.
Which is why a seller needs to ensure they send items using a method where they
can prove delivery, otherwise they are open to chargebacks through paypal, whether
genuinely not received or otherwise.
Points 1-3, the seller is responsible for the package getting to the recipient.
So they are liable for losses.
Point 4, the buyer is morally wrong, but the seller is still responsible for
proving the buyer got the package, so is still liable.
You might not like it, but that is what you agree to when using PayPal.
Of course, you might prefer to make your prices as low as possible and not insist
on insurance / delivery tracking. That might get you more orders. However, if
a buyer says they didn't receive something (whether true or not) under PayPal's
user agreement, you are liable as the seller for proving they did.
Of course, you can leave negative feedback for it if you think they are conning
you. But you are still going to be out of pocket.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 12:53 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
Even if it's not clearly an insurance (in this case, paypal act as a judge, they
d'ont refund anybody, they take money from one to give to the other), it would
be a problem in front of paypal. But regarding the terms here, if the seller
(an individual, I means) states he don't assume responsibility for not insured
package and I agree with that when ordering, I shouldn't complain here for that.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 05:47 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| The buyer pays paypal, and paypal pays the seller. The buyer's contract is with
paypal. It doesn't matter (legally) whether the seller says he is not responsible
for lost items. He is. Now morally, the buyer might feel he should have asked
for postal insurance and so it is his fault for not asking. Alternatively, if
he knows he is covered for losses through a third party, then he might feel he
doesn't need it.
The seller doesn't know which type of buyer he has - one willing to take a risk
and not complain, and one willing to take a risk as he knows he is covered if
things go wrong.
Trust is a difficult thing when purchasing on the internet. A buyer with perfect
feedback and a seller with perfect feedback and a package goes missing - the
seller knows he sent it, the buyer knows he didn't get it. Who is at fault? The
buyer doesn't know for sure that the seller sent it. The seller doesn't know
for sure that the buyer didn't get it.
A seller could easily make money by "forgetting" to post 1 in every 100 orders,
purposely picking an order when the buyer didn't ask for insurance, then claiming
they have perfect feedback and it is the buyer's fault for not requesting insurance.
In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
Even if it's not clearly an insurance (in this case, paypal act as a judge, they
d'ont refund anybody, they take money from one to give to the other), it would
be a problem in front of paypal. But regarding the terms here, if the seller
(an individual, I means) states he don't assume responsibility for not insured
package and I agree with that when ordering, I shouldn't complain here for that.
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Jan_K | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 06:41 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 56 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | The buyer pays paypal, and paypal pays the seller.
|
That's the way(=direction) the money flows, but still: PayPal is forwarding agent
here only, takes it's share (PP fees) and has no ownership of this PAYMENT at
ANY time.
If you send someone a bank transfer, you don't pay the bank either - do you?
| | The buyer's contract is with paypal.
|
This is not true. The buyer and seller agree to accept the PayPal TOS, but the
payment flow is not a contract with PayPal under which the payment might be OWNED
by PayPal at any time. It's similar (even though not exactly the same) to a bank
transfer.
| | It doesn't matter (legally) whether the seller says he is not responsible
for lost items. He is.
|
That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
| | Now morally, the buyer might feel he should have asked
for postal insurance and so it is his fault for not asking. Alternatively, if
he knows he is covered for losses through a third party, then he might feel he
doesn't need it.
|
That's what actually happens every now and then, unfortunately.
| | The seller doesn't know which type of buyer he has - one willing to take a risk
and not complain, and one willing to take a risk as he knows he is covered if
things go wrong.
Trust is a difficult thing when purchasing on the internet. A buyer with perfect
feedback and a seller with perfect feedback and a package goes missing - the
seller knows he sent it, the buyer knows he didn't get it. Who is at fault? The
buyer doesn't know for sure that the seller sent it. The seller doesn't know
for sure that the buyer didn't get it.
|
Exactly.
| | A seller could easily make money by "forgetting" to post 1 in every 100 orders,
purposely picking an order when the buyer didn't ask for insurance, then claiming
they have perfect feedback and it is the buyer's fault for not requesting insurance.
|
That's something the PayPal buyer protection aims at... maybe the initial purpose.
JK
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 08:39 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 08:52 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
For UK, I can confirm, that is what we were officially told by HMRC and BusinessLink
(as it was). UK citizens can make a complaint via their local Trading Standards
Officer if they believe a trader/seller is pretending to be a private individual
not selling for profit (this is an offence in the UK) to avoid compliance with
trading laws such as the Distance Selling Regualtions. Being "part time" or "it
is my hobby" and other reasons for non compliance are not valid. IMO such practice
is taking a big risk, it is better to comply with laws than take penalties for
avoiding them.
Most of this law is based on EU regs but detail implementation may of course
differ slightly in other EU countries.
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Jan_K | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 08:53 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
|
| | Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business.
|
True. (even though many self-called "private" sellers think differently)
| | I can only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling it, then at the time you resell, you are a business.
Same with second hand sets - if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
2x true - and while this is no news, it doesn't affect my statement above.
It just confirms that the number of sellers not to be held (legally!) responsible
for issues during transportation is surprisingly(?) small.
Jan
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 09:11 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
Different country, different laws... for being considered as a professional,
I should get some wage from this (with isn't the case since bricks cost me every
years) or at least it should be by only source of income. And legally, as long
as I'm under some amount of trade, even the fiscal service won't say anything.
And here, that have nothing to do with new or used part. I can go on a shop buy
a new set, and sell it to a friend including the transport cost, that won't be
considered as a professional activity if I don't get enough benefit from that.
I have the right to sell what I own, new or not.
In fact, the law can't enforce me to keep anything I don't want anymore. And
the law enforce me to tell the true when selling something. Then if what I want
to give up is new, I have to tell it.
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 09:19 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
Different country, different laws... for being considered as a professional,
I should get some wage from this (with isn't the case since bricks cost me every
years) or at least it should be by only source of income. And legally, as long
as I'm under some amount of trade, even the fiscal service won't say anything.
And here, that have nothing to do with new or used part. I can go on a shop buy
a new set, and sell it to a friend including the transport cost, that won't be
considered as a professional activity if I don't get enough benefit from that.
I have the right to sell what I own, new or not.
In fact, the law can't enforce me to keep anything I don't want anymore. And
the law enforce me to tell the true when selling something. Then if what I want
to give up is new, I have to tell it.
|
So if I move to France and get a job and declare that as my main income... then
I can operate my BL store outside of any trading regulations and I won't even
have to pay tax?
I love France anyway, this could be the reason to move but some years ago we
looked into moving to France to buy and run a campsite, the regulations, taxes
and other rules on this scared us off.
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 09:33 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
Different country, different laws... for being considered as a professional,
I should get some wage from this (with isn't the case since bricks cost me every
years) or at least it should be by only source of income. And legally, as long
as I'm under some amount of trade, even the fiscal service won't say anything.
And here, that have nothing to do with new or used part. I can go on a shop buy
a new set, and sell it to a friend including the transport cost, that won't be
considered as a professional activity if I don't get enough benefit from that.
I have the right to sell what I own, new or not.
In fact, the law can't enforce me to keep anything I don't want anymore. And
the law enforce me to tell the true when selling something. Then if what I want
to give up is new, I have to tell it.
|
So if I move to France and get a job and declare that as my main income... then
I can operate my BL store outside of any trading regulations and I won't even
have to pay tax?
|
As long as you don't earn too much from that or you can prove that you're not
doing e real benefit.... Yes
And for the tax, you will already paid them through VAT (which you couldn't ask
back for)
| | I love France anyway, this could be the reason to move but some years ago we
looked into moving to France to buy and run a campsite, the regulations, taxes
and other rules on this scared us off.
Robert
|
I usually think than running business here is quit more difficult than in UK,
because of many more laws to know about. And then we have this tolerance about
occasional activity because it's more expansive (charges, insurance....)to start
on official one.
each country have this good point and other less friendly
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 09:40 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
Different country, different laws... for being considered as a professional,
I should get some wage from this (with isn't the case since bricks cost me every
years) or at least it should be by only source of income. And legally, as long
as I'm under some amount of trade, even the fiscal service won't say anything.
And here, that have nothing to do with new or used part. I can go on a shop buy
a new set, and sell it to a friend including the transport cost, that won't be
considered as a professional activity if I don't get enough benefit from that.
I have the right to sell what I own, new or not.
In fact, the law can't enforce me to keep anything I don't want anymore. And
the law enforce me to tell the true when selling something. Then if what I want
to give up is new, I have to tell it.
|
So if I move to France and get a job and declare that as my main income... then
I can operate my BL store outside of any trading regulations and I won't even
have to pay tax?
|
As long as you don't earn too much
|
and "too much" is? Here in UK the taxman is not much interested if you are
turning over less than £2000 per year but you still have to keep records to prove
what you earnt in case they choose to investigate you.
| | from that or you can prove that you're not
doing e real benefit.... Yes
And for the tax, you will already paid them through VAT (which you couldn't ask
back for)
| | I love France anyway, this could be the reason to move but some years ago we
looked into moving to France to buy and run a campsite, the regulations, taxes
and other rules on this scared us off.
Robert
|
I usually think than running business here is quit more difficult than in UK,
because of many more laws to know about. And then we have this tolerance about
occasional activity because it's more expansive (charges, insurance....)to start
on official one.
each country have this good point and other less friendly
|
Agreed, that is what we discovered plus our French language skills are no match
for your English! Maybe we will move to France when we retire
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 09:54 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 27 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
Different country, different laws... for being considered as a professional,
I should get some wage from this (with isn't the case since bricks cost me every
years) or at least it should be by only source of income. And legally, as long
as I'm under some amount of trade, even the fiscal service won't say anything.
And here, that have nothing to do with new or used part. I can go on a shop buy
a new set, and sell it to a friend including the transport cost, that won't be
considered as a professional activity if I don't get enough benefit from that.
I have the right to sell what I own, new or not.
In fact, the law can't enforce me to keep anything I don't want anymore. And
the law enforce me to tell the true when selling something. Then if what I want
to give up is new, I have to tell it.
|
So if I move to France and get a job and declare that as my main income... then
I can operate my BL store outside of any trading regulations and I won't even
have to pay tax?
|
As long as you don't earn too much
|
and "too much" is?
|
I don't know exactly, since fiscal services are fixing this every years
| | Here in UK the taxman is not much interested if you are
turning over less than £2000 per year but you still have to keep records to prove
what you earnt in case they choose to investigate you.
|
Here as well it's always better to keep records. But another difference is that
you pay taxes from the sources (you company give the taxe to the fiscal service,
at a fix rate). Here the tax level depend on your total incomes. Then you have
to declare it yourself.
| |
| | from that or you can prove that you're not
doing e real benefit.... Yes
And for the tax, you will already paid them through VAT (which you couldn't ask
back for)
| | I love France anyway, this could be the reason to move but some years ago we
looked into moving to France to buy and run a campsite, the regulations, taxes
and other rules on this scared us off.
Robert
|
I usually think than running business here is quit more difficult than in UK,
because of many more laws to know about. And then we have this tolerance about
occasional activity because it's more expansive (charges, insurance....)to start
on official one.
each country have this good point and other less friendly
|
Agreed, that is what we discovered plus our French language skills are no match
for your English! Maybe we will move to France when we retire
Robert
|
Isn't a saying in England like: "the France for the French only, are you kidding
?!"
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 10:37 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 27 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
Different country, different laws... for being considered as a professional,
I should get some wage from this (with isn't the case since bricks cost me every
years) or at least it should be by only source of income. And legally, as long
as I'm under some amount of trade, even the fiscal service won't say anything.
And here, that have nothing to do with new or used part. I can go on a shop buy
a new set, and sell it to a friend including the transport cost, that won't be
considered as a professional activity if I don't get enough benefit from that.
I have the right to sell what I own, new or not.
In fact, the law can't enforce me to keep anything I don't want anymore. And
the law enforce me to tell the true when selling something. Then if what I want
to give up is new, I have to tell it.
|
So if I move to France and get a job and declare that as my main income... then
I can operate my BL store outside of any trading regulations and I won't even
have to pay tax?
|
As long as you don't earn too much
|
and "too much" is?
|
I don't know exactly, since fiscal services are fixing this every years
| | Here in UK the taxman is not much interested if you are
turning over less than £2000 per year but you still have to keep records to prove
what you earnt in case they choose to investigate you.
|
Here as well it's always better to keep records. But another difference is that
you pay taxes from the sources (you company give the taxe to the fiscal service,
at a fix rate). Here the tax level depend on your total incomes. Then you have
to declare it yourself.
|
Not exactly, in UK a business is not always "a company"; most small businesses
like BL sellers would be classed as "sole traders" or in our case a non limited
partnership (2 partners) and in both these cases in UK you also self declare
the tax (of course keeping correct records in case of a tax audit). Then it is
the same here also, our tax is calculated depending on our individual total incomes
(BL business and any other taxable income) and individual tax allowances. The
business itself is not taxed unless it is a company. Also small businesses here
do not have to register for VAT untill they reach an annual turnover of about
£80000 but in France any official selling business would be VAT registered I
think?
| | | |
| | from that or you can prove that you're not
doing e real benefit.... Yes
And for the tax, you will already paid them through VAT (which you couldn't ask
back for)
| | I love France anyway, this could be the reason to move but some years ago we
looked into moving to France to buy and run a campsite, the regulations, taxes
and other rules on this scared us off.
Robert
|
I usually think than running business here is quit more difficult than in UK,
because of many more laws to know about. And then we have this tolerance about
occasional activity because it's more expansive (charges, insurance....)to start
on official one.
each country have this good point and other less friendly
|
Agreed, that is what we discovered plus our French language skills are no match
for your English! Maybe we will move to France when we retire
Robert
|
Isn't a saying in England like: "the France for the French only, are you kidding
?!"
|
You might hear that but I also hear the Dordogne refered to as "Dordogneshire"
because so many English live there
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 11:57 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 30 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Rob_and_Shelagh writes:
| | In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
Virtually every seller of new sets / parts on bricklink is a business. I can
only talk of UK law here, but if you purchase an item with the intention of reselling
it, then at the time you resell, you are a business. Same with second hand sets
- if you buy to resell them, you are a business.
|
Different country, different laws... for being considered as a professional,
I should get some wage from this (with isn't the case since bricks cost me every
years) or at least it should be by only source of income. And legally, as long
as I'm under some amount of trade, even the fiscal service won't say anything.
And here, that have nothing to do with new or used part. I can go on a shop buy
a new set, and sell it to a friend including the transport cost, that won't be
considered as a professional activity if I don't get enough benefit from that.
I have the right to sell what I own, new or not.
In fact, the law can't enforce me to keep anything I don't want anymore. And
the law enforce me to tell the true when selling something. Then if what I want
to give up is new, I have to tell it.
|
So if I move to France and get a job and declare that as my main income... then
I can operate my BL store outside of any trading regulations and I won't even
have to pay tax?
|
As long as you don't earn too much
|
and "too much" is?
|
I don't know exactly, since fiscal services are fixing this every years
| | Here in UK the taxman is not much interested if you are
turning over less than £2000 per year but you still have to keep records to prove
what you earnt in case they choose to investigate you.
|
Here as well it's always better to keep records. But another difference is that
you pay taxes from the sources (you company give the taxe to the fiscal service,
at a fix rate). Here the tax level depend on your total incomes. Then you have
to declare it yourself.
|
Not exactly, in UK a business is not always "a company"; most small businesses
like BL sellers would be classed as "sole traders" or in our case a non limited
partnership (2 partners) and in both these cases in UK you also self declare
the tax (of course keeping correct records in case of a tax audit). Then it is
the same here also, our tax is calculated depending on our individual total incomes
(BL business and any other taxable income) and individual tax allowances. The
business itself is not taxed unless it is a company. Also small businesses here
do not have to register for VAT untill they reach an annual turnover of about
£80000 but in France any official selling business would be VAT registered I
think?
|
Thanks for telling... And there is some exception here as well for small business
(usually second activity) for not being under VAT system...
| | | | | |
| | from that or you can prove that you're not
doing e real benefit.... Yes
And for the tax, you will already paid them through VAT (which you couldn't ask
back for)
| | I love France anyway, this could be the reason to move but some years ago we
looked into moving to France to buy and run a campsite, the regulations, taxes
and other rules on this scared us off.
Robert
|
I usually think than running business here is quit more difficult than in UK,
because of many more laws to know about. And then we have this tolerance about
occasional activity because it's more expansive (charges, insurance....)to start
on official one.
each country have this good point and other less friendly
|
Agreed, that is what we discovered plus our French language skills are no match
for your English! Maybe we will move to France when we retire
Robert
|
Isn't a saying in England like: "the France for the French only, are you kidding
?!"
|
You might hear that but I also hear the Dordogne refered to as "Dordogneshire"
because so many English live there
|
As London is the 6th French town in regards to French inhabitant number...
It as always been a strange story between the two side of the channel
Axel
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 12:04 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 44 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | | | | |
Isn't a saying in England like: "the France for the French only, are you kidding
?!"
|
You might hear that but I also hear the Dordogne refered to as "Dordogneshire"
because so many English live there
|
As London is the 6th French town in regards to French inhabitant number...
It as always been a strange story between the two side of the channel
|
I think the English saying "the grass is always greener on the other side" comes
into play but in reality it IS greener here, it rains so much more
Robert
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Legovogel | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 09:14 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | The buyer pays paypal, and paypal pays the seller.
|
That's the way(=direction) the money flows, but still: PayPal is forwarding agent
here only, takes it's share (PP fees) and has no ownership of this PAYMENT at
ANY time.
If you send someone a bank transfer, you don't pay the bank either - do you?
| | The buyer's contract is with paypal.
|
This is not true. The buyer and seller agree to accept the PayPal TOS, but the
payment flow is not a contract with PayPal under which the payment might be OWNED
by PayPal at any time. It's similar (even though not exactly the same) to a bank
transfer.
| | It doesn't matter (legally) whether the seller says he is not responsible
for lost items. He is.
|
That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
Richard
| |
| | Now morally, the buyer might feel he should have asked
for postal insurance and so it is his fault for not asking. Alternatively, if
he knows he is covered for losses through a third party, then he might feel he
doesn't need it.
|
That's what actually happens every now and then, unfortunately.
| | The seller doesn't know which type of buyer he has - one willing to take a risk
and not complain, and one willing to take a risk as he knows he is covered if
things go wrong.
Trust is a difficult thing when purchasing on the internet. A buyer with perfect
feedback and a seller with perfect feedback and a package goes missing - the
seller knows he sent it, the buyer knows he didn't get it. Who is at fault? The
buyer doesn't know for sure that the seller sent it. The seller doesn't know
for sure that the buyer didn't get it.
|
Exactly.
| | A seller could easily make money by "forgetting" to post 1 in every 100 orders,
purposely picking an order when the buyer didn't ask for insurance, then claiming
they have perfect feedback and it is the buyer's fault for not requesting insurance.
|
That's something the PayPal buyer protection aims at... maybe the initial purpose.
JK
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 09:43 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | The buyer pays paypal, and paypal pays the seller.
|
That's the way(=direction) the money flows, but still: PayPal is forwarding agent
here only, takes it's share (PP fees) and has no ownership of this PAYMENT at
ANY time.
If you send someone a bank transfer, you don't pay the bank either - do you?
| | The buyer's contract is with paypal.
|
This is not true. The buyer and seller agree to accept the PayPal TOS, but the
payment flow is not a contract with PayPal under which the payment might be OWNED
by PayPal at any time. It's similar (even though not exactly the same) to a bank
transfer.
| | It doesn't matter (legally) whether the seller says he is not responsible
for lost items. He is.
|
That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
Richard
|
Another country, another system...
Through commercial law, the seller is responsible as well in front of the buyer,
and the PO is responsible in front of the seller (indeed, whatever the seller
statut in this last relationship). Then it's a chain of responsibility..
But from civil law (then between individual) the PO is responsible, since it
is the only professional involved and he had to prove his skills for operating
the business. (after, it's only a question of who can prove what...). And specially
since if the transaction where based of money or not is a private matter. (You
could have trade part against part as well)
(civil laws protect the one who are reputed to be the more vulnerable, then the
individual in front of the professional.... in theory)
| |
| |
| | Now morally, the buyer might feel he should have asked
for postal insurance and so it is his fault for not asking. Alternatively, if
he knows he is covered for losses through a third party, then he might feel he
doesn't need it.
|
That's what actually happens every now and then, unfortunately.
| | The seller doesn't know which type of buyer he has - one willing to take a risk
and not complain, and one willing to take a risk as he knows he is covered if
things go wrong.
Trust is a difficult thing when purchasing on the internet. A buyer with perfect
feedback and a seller with perfect feedback and a package goes missing - the
seller knows he sent it, the buyer knows he didn't get it. Who is at fault? The
buyer doesn't know for sure that the seller sent it. The seller doesn't know
for sure that the buyer didn't get it.
|
Exactly.
| | A seller could easily make money by "forgetting" to post 1 in every 100 orders,
purposely picking an order when the buyer didn't ask for insurance, then claiming
they have perfect feedback and it is the buyer's fault for not requesting insurance.
|
That's something the PayPal buyer protection aims at... maybe the initial purpose.
JK
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Jan_K | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 11:48 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
|
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
|
| | At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
|
AFAIK, consumer law address legal details between (business!) sellers and CONSUMERS
only - this does not cover purely private transactions, regardless of a payment
involved or not.
[And yes: this exception will NOT apply to the vast majority of BrickLink transactions]
JK
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Rob_and_Shelagh | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 11:59 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 35 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
|
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
|
| | At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
|
AFAIK, consumer law address legal details between (business!) sellers and CONSUMERS
only - this does not cover purely private transactions, regardless of a payment
involved or not.
[And yes: this exception will NOT apply to the vast majority of BrickLink transactions]
JK
|
Interstingly the legislation also does not cover business to business transactions
so, for example, if you buy from us or vice versa it does not have to apply.
Of course I will not claim this as an exception if you buy from us, we give the
same service to all customers.
Robert
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Legovogel | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 12:43 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 29 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
|
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
|
| | At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
|
AFAIK, consumer law address legal details between (business!) sellers and CONSUMERS
only - this does not cover purely private transactions, regardless of a payment
involved or not.
[And yes: this exception will NOT apply to the vast majority of BrickLink transactions]
JK
|
Well, I did personally contact the consumer law's organisation about this some
while ago, and they were very clear to me that the law in question covered ALL
transactions, including private-private.
This is irrespective of payment method or whatever, when person A buys something
from person B than B is responsible for getting the item to A.
I specifically made the distinction between private and bussiness, but they said
there is no difference.
This is info I got from those who should know the applicable law in the Netherlands...
Richard
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 13:24 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 40 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| To be more precise about regulation here : when I say the private seller isn't
responsible for lost package, that don't mean he hasn't to prove he ship the
package.
And it is in fact a chain of responsibility. Since teh seller contract to the
PO as a representative of the buyer, he still have to defend the buyer interest
in front of the PO.
Then, if he can prove the shipping, he should as well prove that he have done
the right procedure to the PO to assume his responsibility. Then, for a (not
so simple) shipping with proof, he should only refund the buyer from what he
get back from the PO. Depending of the service he pay for, that can be only the
shipping cost, a standard value based on weight....
But concerning an individual, paypal have no right to do the job of a justice
court. Then maybe one day it will became prohibited here because of "illegal
exercise of justice" (not sure for the translation), if an private individual
prosecute them... not sure, just a thought
In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
|
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
|
| | At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
|
AFAIK, consumer law address legal details between (business!) sellers and CONSUMERS
only - this does not cover purely private transactions, regardless of a payment
involved or not.
[And yes: this exception will NOT apply to the vast majority of BrickLink transactions]
JK
|
Well, I did personally contact the consumer law's organisation about this some
while ago, and they were very clear to me that the law in question covered ALL
transactions, including private-private.
This is irrespective of payment method or whatever, when person A buys something
from person B than B is responsible for getting the item to A.
I specifically made the distinction between private and bussiness, but they said
there is no difference.
This is info I got from those who should know the applicable law in the Netherlands...
Richard
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Jan_K | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 14:22 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
|
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
|
| | At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
|
AFAIK, consumer law address legal details between (business!) sellers and CONSUMERS
only - this does not cover purely private transactions, regardless of a payment
involved or not.
[And yes: this exception will NOT apply to the vast majority of BrickLink transactions]
|
|
| | Well, I did personally contact the consumer law's organisation about this some
while ago, and they were very clear to me that the law in question covered ALL
transactions, including private-private.
|
interesting...
| | This is irrespective of payment method or whatever, when person A buys something
from person B than B is responsible for getting the item to A.
I specifically made the distinction between private and bussiness, but they said
there is no difference.
This is info I got from those who should know the applicable law in the Netherlands...
|
Absolutely.
So as a Dutch seller, you have a hard time selling ANYTHING anywhere - even your
old clothes at eBay or anything else. I wonder if they are sponsored by TNT to
inrease their turnover through registration services
Thanks for letting me/us know!
Jan
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | Legovogel | | Posted: | Dec 21, 2012 02:12 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
| | In Suggestions, Marisuda writes:
| | In Suggestions, Jan_K writes:
|
| | | | That's not a legal boundary but part of the PayPal TOS only.
LEGALLY, this applies to (EU) business sellers only - (real!) private sellers
may very well refuse this responsibility, unless they accept PayPal payments...
|
|
| | At least in the Netherlands this is incorrect. ANYONE selling something to another
person is legally (through consumer law) responsible for getting the goods in
the hands of the buyer in the agree condition. So damaged or lost shipments are
always the seller's responsibility, business or private.
|
AFAIK, consumer law address legal details between (business!) sellers and CONSUMERS
only - this does not cover purely private transactions, regardless of a payment
involved or not.
[And yes: this exception will NOT apply to the vast majority of BrickLink transactions]
|
|
| | Well, I did personally contact the consumer law's organisation about this some
while ago, and they were very clear to me that the law in question covered ALL
transactions, including private-private.
|
interesting...
| | This is irrespective of payment method or whatever, when person A buys something
from person B than B is responsible for getting the item to A.
I specifically made the distinction between private and bussiness, but they said
there is no difference.
This is info I got from those who should know the applicable law in the Netherlands...
|
Absolutely.
So as a Dutch seller, you have a hard time selling ANYTHING anywhere - even your
old clothes at eBay or anything else. I wonder if they are sponsored by TNT to
inrease their turnover through registration services
Thanks for letting me/us know!
Jan
|
this all doesn't mean that it wouldn't be difficult for a buyer to get his money
back in case of lost shipment, in the end you will have to go to police/court
and for small buys this can be costly...
So it's more theory than anything else...
As you know, we have a thriving site called Marktplaats for 2nd hand stuff...
Most of the time, things work out well.
Richard
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 20, 2012 07:31 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 42 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| First, just a point about the event that mad me think that lost packages may
as well be intended as a possible issue to the order. I pay with IBAN, not paypal.
Then paypal isn't the initial topic.
Since I feel it's interesting to thing about all this, with different national
point of view, I'm going to get further with you're answer:
In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | The buyer pays paypal, and paypal pays the seller. The buyer's contract is with
paypal.
|
There are 2 contract : one with paypal, the other here on BL... and even a 4
more, since 1 with my bank exist as well, and 1 between the seller/buyer bank.
And according to the French laws, as an individual (even seller) I could as well
get after paypal in a justice court arguing that their terms are not so clear.
And since I haven't sign anything (the check-in box are admitted, but are not
a proof in a court). And they will never be able to prove that I was able enough
to well understand all their terms. Because facing an individual, in France it's
the company's responsibility to prove that the individual agreed with the contract
term with a full understanding of that.
In fact, many company are taking a lot of risk as well using commercial laws
for establishing contract, thinking that it's still more profitable than fully
applying the civil laws. I haven-'t checked for paypal, but many terms told that
"if one of the two involved in the contract want to face justice, they will go
to a commercial court". And this term isn't legal facing an individual. Then
that can make the contract illegal.
| | It doesn't matter (legally) whether the seller says he is not responsible
for lost items. He is.
|
At least From a French point of view : wrong. Paying the shipping imply that
there is a contract between shipper and the PO for the shipping service. Then
the PO is responsible. So the only point is "how you prove the PO responsibility
?"
| | Now morally, the buyer might feel he should have asked
for postal insurance and so it is his fault for not asking.
|
As a citizen, I've taken a risk, because I felt I would at the end spare money.
Then it my responsibility to assume my choice. Then more than morally, it's as
well question of freedom about risk management.
| | Alternatively, if
he knows he is covered for losses through a third party, then he might feel he
doesn't need it.
The seller doesn't know which type of buyer he has - one willing to take a risk
and not complain, and one willing to take a risk as he knows he is covered if
things go wrong.
Trust is a difficult thing when purchasing on the internet. A buyer with perfect
feedback and a seller with perfect feedback and a package goes missing - the
seller knows he sent it, the buyer knows he didn't get it. Who is at fault? The
buyer doesn't know for sure that the seller sent it. The seller doesn't know
for sure that the buyer didn't get it.
A seller could easily make money by "forgetting" to post 1 in every 100 orders,
purposely picking an order when the buyer didn't ask for insurance, then claiming
they have perfect feedback and it is the buyer's fault for not requesting insurance.
|
In any relationship between human, the trust is an easy thing...and everybody
could make a mistake. I do think that citizenship is about assuming one own mistake...
Then I keep some hope...
| |
In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | The buyer accepted the risk and the seller and buyer agreed to accept the loss.
Filing a paypalclaim afterwards wouldn't be fair.
Sometimes people should trust each other on their word.
|
The buyer doesn't need to insure if they pay by PayPal, since they already have
insurance through PayPal. Sellers always need to take that into account when
they sell.
|
Even if it's not clearly an insurance (in this case, paypal act as a judge, they
d'ont refund anybody, they take money from one to give to the other), it would
be a problem in front of paypal. But regarding the terms here, if the seller
(an individual, I means) states he don't assume responsibility for not insured
package and I agree with that when ordering, I shouldn't complain here for that.
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:15 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 33 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
|
| | You may be right, for commercial legislation. But this isn't true for transaction
between individuals (in France at least). What is the rules in this case is what
2 part have agreed about. And I agreed with the term of his store. Then....
|
Interesting, that I did not know, I have been under the impression that EU regs
have priority over member states regs, with in that the definition applies to
any fixed price transaction, regardless of business or private status -
| |
Maybe, maybe not.... In my most humble opinion ( ) that's what suggestions
are meant for, isn't it ?
| |
In my most humble opinion - graham
|
Whatever, thanks for your opinion.
Axel
|
best /graham
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | therobo | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:07 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 48 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | Just FYI.
EU regs state that it is the sellers responsibility to get the order to you -
if it doesn't arrive the loss is theirs not yours.
|
Just FYI.
EU regs are not binding for natural persons or businesses.
They are only binding for EU member countries and have to be implemented in local
law(s).
Each EU country has done (or will do) this in different ways.
In Germany for example the responsibility to get the order to the buyer only
applies to commercial sellers.
Private seller's responsibility is only to hand it over to a shipping company,
e.g. post office, and to have proof for it.
So the question is what exact law of which country applies here and what type
of seller the OP dealed with.
Btw. can you post a link to the EU reg which explicitly refers to this responsibility?
Ronald
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:25 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, therobo writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
|
| |
Btw. can you post a link to the EU reg which explicitly refers to this responsibility?
Ronald
|
Give me some time - I had to read it due to sales "elsewhere" - I'll have to
backtrack - it was quite some time ago.
Graham
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | Graham. | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:35 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, therobo writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
|
| |
Btw. can you post a link to the EU reg which explicitly refers to this responsibility?
Ronald
|
OK this to start
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/dist_sell/index_en.htm
by the fact that circumstances aren't excluded, as far as I am aware, means they
are included.
- notice some things (such as auctions) are excluded - the action of selling
IS a commercial activity regardless of status - altho mine would be a hopeless
one as far as profit is concerned
G
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 12:49 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | In Suggestions, therobo writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
|
| |
Btw. can you post a link to the EU reg which explicitly refers to this responsibility?
Ronald
|
OK this to start
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/dist_sell/index_en.htm
by the fact that circumstances aren't excluded, as far as I am aware, means they
are included.
- notice some things (such as auctions) are excluded - the action of selling
IS a commercial activity regardless of status - altho mine would be a hopeless
one as far as profit is concerned
G
|
Your reference is about consumer, which imply that the seller is professional....
Then, if something is in a "regulation" and not a "directive", it's only a guideline
for states. That doesn't have the statue of a law. (here it is a directive, I
agree).
And even with a directive, there are articles to let some freedom for state to
take times to comply with. That doesn't they will translate it in there national
law.
For instance, France is charged every years By Europe for keeping limit about
tobacco quantities an individual can bring from another EU country. Then in front
of a national civil court, one can still be charged for not respecting the national
laws, even if in a European justice court, facing the French state, the individual
can still win (after 10 years of procedure).
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 13:31 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 39 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
| | In Suggestions, therobo writes:
| | In Suggestions, Thunor writes:
|
| |
Btw. can you post a link to the EU reg which explicitly refers to this responsibility?
Ronald
|
OK this to start
http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/dist_sell/index_en.htm
by the fact that circumstances aren't excluded, as far as I am aware, means they
are included.
- notice some things (such as auctions) are excluded - the action of selling
IS a commercial activity regardless of status - altho mine would be a hopeless
one as far as profit is concerned
G
|
Your reference is about consumer, which imply that the seller is professional....
Then, if something is in a "regulation" and not a "directive", it's only a guideline
for states. That doesn't have the statue of a law. (here it is a directive, I
agree).
And even with a directive, there are articles to let some freedom for state to
take times to comply with. That doesn't they will translate it in there national
law.
For instance, France is charged every years By Europe for keeping limit about
tobacco quantities an individual can bring from another EU country. Then in front
of a national civil court, one can still be charged for not respecting the national
laws, even if in a European justice court, facing the French state, the individual
can still win (after 10 years of procedure).
|
My mistake... (what a shame), I once again switch the 2 names... "Regulation"
act as a law, and "directive" as a guideline... Then your reference can't be
enforced automatically in any EU country.
To go further, in any country which have a constitution, EU legislation can overwright
the constitution. Then if the constitution is not modified sometimes to allow
application of this text (when it's necessary), even a EU court can't deliberate
with that.....
But we are out from the original suggestion...
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | MikeS | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 09:21 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| Axel,
I have a couple questions ...
* Where was the order coming from / where is the seller located? Local (France)?
International? (I had an order USA to Canada take 6 weeks around the holidays.)
* If international, is it possible that it is tied up in customs? It could be
that the increased holiday mail is slowing down delivery.
* Would it have been a large or small package?
* How do you normally receive packages? Does the Post Office leave them on your
doorstep? Do you have to pick them up at the Post Office? Could they have left
it with a neighbor if you were not at home?
I'd be interested in hearing more details about the order.
Good Luck! Hope it does arrive!
MikeS
BRICKMART
In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
[snip]
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 12:41 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, MikeS writes:
| | Axel,
I have a couple questions ...
* Where was the order coming from / where is the seller located? Local (France)?
International? (I had an order USA to Canada take 6 weeks around the holidays.)
|
Internationnal, but within EU, it's not so far. From Netherland to France, less
than 100km border to border.
I get many order from there, usually never longer than 2 weeks for arriving.
| | * If international, is it possible that it is tied up in customs? It could be
that the increased holiday mail is slowing down delivery.
|
I had a couple of order delayed due to custom, since marijuana are legal there.
I know it because of the tape "custom control" they put to close back the package.
And as this order would have been shipped in a box, there is no reason they would
have smash it when checking.
| | * Would it have been a large or small package?
* How do you normally receive packages? Does the Post Office leave them on your
doorstep? Do you have to pick them up at the Post Office? Could they have left
it with a neighbor if you were not at home?
|
Simply in my mailbox. It's a standardized one, with a lock special for the delivery
man to open it (and I know him, he's really nice )
| |
I'd be interested in hearing more details about the order.
Good Luck! Hope it does arrive!
MikeS
BRICKMART
In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
[snip]
|
|
|
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | Author: | yorbrick | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 15:37 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 45 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| | | I had a couple of order delayed due to custom, since marijuana are legal there.
I know it because of the tape "custom control" they put to close back the package.
And as this order would have been shipped in a box, there is no reason they would
have smash it when checking.
|
It is not legal, it is tolerated. But only in small amounts.
|
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | | | | | | | | | | Author: | bb200521 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 18:09 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, mabccc writes:
| | | | I had a couple of order delayed due to custom, since marijuana are legal there.
I know it because of the tape "custom control" they put to close back the package.
And as this order would have been shipped in a box, there is no reason they would
have smash it when checking.
|
It is not legal, it is tolerated. But only in small amounts.
|
Agreed, but it's not the point of this suggestions...
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | cptnruthless | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 10:38 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
Not for complaining any way : I take the responsibility for not having asked
for insurance, and the order value is far less than what I save with not asking
for it; But just to note that this things could happen (and maybe getting some
statistic on that) and are not listed as a possible conclusion of the deal.
|
Hold out hope! If it's coming from the US, it may have been impacted by the delays
with Hurricane Sandy, PLUS it's the holiday time so all international shipments
take a bit longer. I ordered from an overseas seller in early November, but
it only arrived a few days ago.
-Ruth
|
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | BLUSER_50130 | | Posted: | Dec 19, 2012 10:52 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 53 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| I have had orders from canada to france and such overseas take over 8 weeks to
arrive when shipped surface mail. So if it was sent surface i think its still
on its way. Hence I do not use surface shipping anymore and blatantly state that
on my terms page.
|
|
| | | | | |
| | | | | Author: | tomte | | Posted: | May 18, 2014 12:20 | | Subject: | Re: Lost order.... | | Viewed: | 59 times | | Topic: | Suggestions | |
|
| In Suggestions, niemand writes:
| | After a quick search on the forum, I didn't find any answer. Then....
Since I use BL, I finally get what seams to be my fist order lost. I had a nice
contact with the seller. And it seam we had no way to have answer from the PO
(simple shipment, no tracking, no insurance).
Hence, I can't say the order is received or completed, since I got nothing.
And as it was shipped 6 week ago, I have no more hope to finally get it. Then
I still have on "MyBrickLink" page a message telling me about this order that
I should change status.
Then, could it be possible to have a "lost package" status to "close" the order,
or a "non received order" on order problem page ?
Not for complaining any way : I take the responsibility for not having asked
for insurance, and the order value is far less than what I save with not asking
for it; But just to note that this things could happen (and maybe getting some
statistic on that) and are not listed as a possible conclusion of the deal.
|
seams to be implemented now... The above forum post is more than 6 months old.
the suggestions could have been marked as implemented.
|
|
|
|
|
|
France, Grand Est
Netherlands, Gelderland
United Kingdom, England
USA, Tennessee
Belgium, Flemish Brabant
Canada, Ontario
Germany, Nordrhein-Westfalen
